Bead Filters and Pump Sizing

[aldiaz33]

Speaking for myself i am curious if this pump could handle not only the head hight but being a pressurized system the 1900 would slow down substancially being pushed through the ultima but do it let's see what happens>??????

That's a good point...without knowing the entire system's total head pressure, it's impossible to say whether or not any pump will suffice. It's almost like asking you to guess how long a piece of string is, sight unseen.

To know for sure we would have to know how much head pressure is generated by the filter unit itself, then add that figure to the head pressure generated by the rest of the plumbing. Each setup is going to be different.

For example, if Peter's system has a total of 20' of head pressure (regardless of how it is created i.e.- pumping water vertically, horizontally, or through a densely packed filter unit), the Laguna is obviously not going to cut it because even though it does 2,000GPH @ 10', it does 0GPH at 20'. This would also be true for a comparably sized Direct Drive external pump like a Reeflo Super Dart Gold. You would probably need to run a .5HP pump in order to get the desired 2,000GPH at 20' of head.

My guess is that the filter generates about 5' of head (when clean) and they are estimating that most people (on average) have around 5' of additional head pressure so that's why they give a general rule of thumb of 2,000GPH @10' of head for the Ultima 2000. This rule of thumb is actually totally useless if you are operating outside of the averages.

I would call them up to find out how much head pressure the filter will add. Once you know that, we can easily figure out if the rest of your plumbing is adding more head pressure than the Laguna can handle.

Aqua Ultraviolet's Contact info:
(800) 454-2725, or by fax (951) 296-3490 M-F 8:00 am - 4:30 pm Pacific Standard time
except selected holidays or you may reach us through the web at www.aquaultraviolet.com.

 

[kendragon]

On-line owners manual states:
What's the flow loss through the filter?
The filter flow loss ranges from 3-8ft of head, depending on how dirty the filter is.

 

[malawi500]

Can anyone advise how these units actually work?

Can they replace a canister or a sump?

How would you size one to solely do a 100 gallon tank or say 200 gallon? Pick one that does say 10x turnover?

Thanks

 

[aldiaz33]

On-line owners manual states:
What's the flow loss through the filter?
The filter flow loss ranges from 3-8ft of head, depending on how dirty the filter is.

Thanks for that info Kendragon.

So as long as 2" plumbing is used and the water does not need to be pumped more than 6' vertically, the Laguna Max Flo is a good fit for the Ultima II 2000. The Reeflo Super Dart Gold would work well too, but it's a bit more expensive.

 

[jlnguyen74]

huh? How do you figure the Max flo 4200 will not work for the Ultima 2000?

Per Aqua UV, they state that the minimum flow for the Ultima 2000 is 1,000GPH and the maximum flow is 2,500GPH, with 2,000GPH @10' being ideal.
Scroll up to see the pic Peter posted or check it out at their website: http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/filters/ultima2/2000

The Next Generation (2012) Laguna Max Flo 4200 does 1,968 GPH @ 10' of head pressure, which is as close to the ideal pump for this filter that you are going to get. Even if he goes with last year's model Max Flo 4200 which does 1908GPH @ 10' of head, that is still almost ideal(http://www.azponds.com/laguna_maxflo_chart.htm).

The Ultima 6000 on the other hand will need a larger pump than what Laguna has to offer, but the Max Flo 4200 is the ideal pump for the Ultima 2000.

See page 7 of Laguna's Product Catalog for current model year flow rates: http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/careguides/2012-Laguna-Catalogue.pdf

I agree with your other comments, but can you explain why you think the Max Flo 4200 will not suffice for an Ultima 2000?

You may like to go with the lowest/minimum/cheapest, but it doesn't mean others do, especially with a person who already had a 180gal sump and four large canister filters, and still wants to add an Ultima II 2000 to the system.
Being "close to the ideal pump/almost ideal" does not make it become "the ideal pump."
I did not say "Max Flo 4200 will not work for the Ultima 2000." I said it would not suffice

 

[jlnguyen74]

That's a good point...without knowing the entire system's total head pressure, it's impossible to say whether or not any pump will suffice. It's almost like asking you to guess how long a piece of string is, sight unseen.

To know for sure we would have to know how much head pressure is generated by the filter unit itself, then add that figure to the head pressure generated by the rest of the plumbing. Each setup is going to be different.

For example, if Peter's system has a total of 20' of head pressure (regardless of how it is created i.e.- pumping water vertically, horizontally, or through a densely packed filter unit), the Laguna is obviously not going to cut it because even though it does 2,000GPH @ 10', it does 0GPH at 20'. This would also be true for a comparably sized Direct Drive external pump like a Reeflo Super Dart Gold. You would probably need to run a .5HP pump in order to get the desired 2,000GPH at 20' of head.

My guess is that the filter generates about 5' of head (when clean) and they are estimating that most people (on average) have around 5' of additional head pressure so that's why they give a general rule of thumb of 2,000GPH @10' of head for the Ultima 2000. This rule of thumb is actually totally useless if you are operating outside of the averages.

I would call them up to find out how much head pressure the filter will add. Once you know that, we can easily figure out if the rest of your plumbing is adding more head pressure than the Laguna can handle.

Aqua Ultraviolet's Contact info:
(800) 454-2725, or by fax (951) 296-3490 M-F 8:00 am - 4:30 pm Pacific Standard time
except selected holidays or you may reach us through the web at www.aquaultraviolet.com.

That's why the manufacturer has the "Pump Recommendation!" Why would you want a pump that pushes 2000gph @ 20' head, when the manufacturer recommended a pump that pushes 2000gph @ 10' head? If Peter's system has a total of 20' head pressure, as long as he uses a pump that produces 2000 gph at 10' head, and whatever gph that Peter desires at 20', then it's good to go, isn't it? "Rule of thumb" is useless only to the person who uses pump "as close to" recommended pump or "guess." Why would you want to call them up, when you can just follow the instruction that is already provided by the manufacturer? How hard is it to follow the instruction, especially from one who graduated from Davis?

 

[jlnguyen74]

Thanks for that info Kendragon.

So as long as 2" plumbing is used and the water does not need to be pumped more than 6' vertically, the Laguna Max Flo is a good fit for the Ultima II 2000. The Reeflo Super Dart Gold would work well too, but it's a bit more expensive.

You may want to read that page 7 that you asked me to read, where there's a fine print on the bottom said, "* Remember the figures are approximate and based on maximum output in ideal conditions. Extra wide waterfalls or additional spouting ornaments will require a more powerful pump. " That pump outlet is for 1" hose, correct? Plug it into a 2" plumbing may reduce the flow, since it's extra wide...

 

[aldiaz33]

Relax Johnny Boy. We're talking filtration here...no need to get worked up.

You may like to go with the lowest/minimum/cheapest, but it doesn't mean others do, especially with a person who already had a 180gal sump and four large canister filters, and still wants to add an Ultima II 2000 to the system.
Being "close to the ideal pump/almost ideal" does not make it become "the ideal pump."
I did not say "Max Flo 4200 will not work for the Ultima 2000." I said it would not suffice

In a system with 10' of total head, what pump will "suffice?"

That's why the manufacturer has the "Pump Recommendation!" Why would you want a pump that pushes 2000gph @ 20' head, when the manufacturer recommended a pump that pushes 2000gph @ 10' head? If Peter's system has a total of 20' head pressure, as long as he uses a pump that produces 2000 gph at 10' head, and whatever gph that Peter desires at 20', then it's good to go, isn't it? "Rule of thumb" is useless only to the person who uses pump "as close to" recommended pump or "guess." Why would you want to call them up, when you can just follow the instruction that is already provided by the manufacturer? How hard is it to follow the instruction, especially from one who graduated from Davis?

You aren't getting it...the pump needs to be sized to the total system. Think about it....and keep in mind that optimal flow through the filter is 2,000GPH...

In a system with 20' of head, the pump will need to overcome that head pressure while still pushing 2,000GPH through the filter, so yes, a pump that does 2,000GPH @ 20' of head would be optimal.

If a pump does 2,000GPH @ 10' of head, but does 0GPH @ 15' of head, the pump will be pushing zero GPH through the Ultima filter in this hypothetical system with 20' of head. Filters don't work unless there is water flowing through them. In this example, even though the pump does ~2,000GPH @10' of head, it is totally inadequate because there will be NO water flow on any system with more than 15' of head.

Although a college eduation might be helpful, you shouldn't need one to figure that out...that's common sense.

You may want to read that page 7 that you asked me to read, where there's a fine print on the bottom said, "* Remember the figures are approximate and based on maximum output in ideal conditions. Extra wide waterfalls or additional spouting ornaments will require a more powerful pump. " That pump outlet is for 1" hose, correct? Plug it into a 2" plumbing may reduce the flow, since it's extra wide...

lol- wrong again. On page 8 you will see that the fitting is for 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should use 1.25" or 1.5" pipe.

Stepping up to larger plumbing will never result in a reduction in flow. To the contrary, the larger the pipe, the less friction head loss. See the chart below.

See how all else being equal, the Friction Head Loss is reduced the larger the pipe? Less Friction Head Loss results in more flow.

Therefore, using 2" plumbing will reduce Friction Head Loss (and consequently increase flow rates) exactly because, as you state, "since it's extra wide."


Source: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-loss-plastic-pipes-d_404.html

 

[jlnguyen74]

It's hard for a person whose experience is only from cut-and-paste color pictures to understand. Why don't you try a hand-on experience? Go to Home Depot, buy a 10-ft section of 1" pipe and 2" pipe. Take your pump and a full 5-gal bucket to your lawn. Shoot water thru each pipe and record the different height and different time the water comes out the top. Do that, then we talk, D-az Boy!

 

[jlnguyen74]

Relax Johnny Boy. We're talking filtration here...no need to get worked up.



In a system with 10' of total head, what pump will "suffice?"



You aren't getting it...the pump needs to be sized to the total system. Think about it....and keep in mind that optimal flow through the filter is 2,000GPH...

In a system with 20' of head, the pump will need to overcome that head pressure while still pushing 2,000GPH through the filter, so yes, a pump that does 2,000GPH @ 20' of head would be optimal.

If a pump does 2,000GPH @ 10' of head, but does 0GPH @ 15' of head, the pump will be pushing zero GPH through the Ultima filter in this hypothetical system with 20' of head. Filters don't work unless there is water flowing through them. In this example, even though the pump does ~2,000GPH @10' of head, it is totally inadequate because there will be NO water flow on any system with more than 15' of head.

Although a college eduation might be helpful, you shouldn't need one to figure that out...that's common sense. ]

You're the one who lacks of common sense. If you want to see water on the return end, whether it's 15', 20' or 100' head, of course you need to get a pump that can handle such head pressure. That's why I posted that he needs a pump that produces 2000gph @ 10' head and whatever desires gph at 20-ft head. It doesn't mean he must use a pump that produces 2000gph @ 20' head. You're the one who needs to calm down and start reading.