Bear with me...'advanced' gravel vac

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Moloch

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Sep 8, 2010
884
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Raleigh, NC
backstory, not really necessary to read
Alright. So pythons are great, love em. But I don't need to do a water change every time I need to clean some crap out of my tank. I PREFER to do daily or every-other-day cleanings, but it rarely ever happens because I haven't found an easy enough way to do it that I don't dread dealing with it.

So far the easiest method has been air-powered vacuums. Just hook a small airpump up to a tube that sticks out of the water and has a T-fitting with a bag on one side and voila, all your crap off the bottom is deposited in the bag, you clean that out and move about your business.

Con's to this system? Rigid/plastic tube makes it difficult to get under things & into corners. Weak flow makes it difficult to pick up larger pieces of crap. I hate cleaning the bag afterwards and dealing with letting it dry out etc etc. I have to keep an airpump under the stand with a place to plug it in and deal with a long air-line hose/tube contraption thats always in the way.

what I've come up with so far that I know works, but isn't quite good enough yet
So what I have so far involves a powerhead, a bag and a short length of 1/2" flex tubing. I just hook the flex tube up to the intake and put the bag over the outtake. This creates GREAT suction, lets me get to everything in the tank, and with enough ingenuity, can always be in place ready to use but easily kept out of sight (minus the bag, it would have to be taken out and cleaned/left out of the tank in between uses).

Con's to this? I still hate using bags. Another thing I might be able to do to improve this is get a metal or plastic screen and some different PVC fittings and fashion something that would be easy to pop on & off and just rinse the screen off. But I haven't fully thought that out yet. The screen has to allow enough water to flow through that something bad doesn't happen, but not have holes large enough to let the crap sift through it. Also, this sends a LOT of unnecessary crap through the impeller of the powerhead, so regular maintenance would be required which would probably get to be a pain and defeat the purpose.

What I'm working on that I REALLY want to get perfected
Essentially, a sump powered in-place vacuum. Basically, I would put a 10 gallon tank under my stand with a low-flow pump. I wouldn't be looking for huge water turnover, filtration or anything else, it would essentially just be a tank of water with a pump in it. So don't get your mind wrapped around it needing to be a sump with baffles and filter media and everything else. Just an overflow into the tank and a pump out of the tank (with a sponge or some other system in place to keep the crap you vacuum out trapped in the small tank. I would basically have the overflow centered in the back of the tank with a hose long enough to reach each corner and flexible enough to be easy to work with around my driftwood & rocks.

I could make the hose the only intake for it, use a valve for shutoff and kill the water flow when I'm done using it. This would leave water in the overflow so whenever I needed to use it I could just open the valve to start the siphon and turn on the pump to avoid a spill. When not in use I would have clips around the top of the tank that would hold the hose in place out of sight along the back wall.

Then at the end of the week when I comes time for a WC, just stick the python in the little tank first to suck all the crap out and carry on about the rest of my business as usual.

my concerns for this system
I'm worried that the overflow will be noisy, and that will be unacceptable. Although I think I've read that with enough flow diversion (90* bends along the plumbing line) you can quiet them down significantly--this is in regards to DIY PVC overflows.

If I don't allow for continuos operation (I.E. no waterflow while the system isn't in use) I'd be worried that it could begin to cause a foul smell. This could probably be averted by an airstone or by allowing for continuos flow.

I'll have a hard time getting an appropriate pump, and I don't have much monetary room for trial and error. This I'm pretty sure can be averted with enough proper research, but its still going to be annoying.

options this system allows me
I don't HAVE to stick with a 10gal. I know my 20h fits in my stand, I would just need to move my powerstrip. So I could have an extra 20gallons of space separated from my main tank with the exact same parameters. I don't need to hide my heaters, they're rena smartheaters anyways so they're just my canister intakes. BUT, it would be a readily available isolation tank (I would just slap its own filter on it if I had to quarantine a fish). I could use it raise fry if I can manage to breed livebearers in my tank. I can use it for dosing whatever I need to dose. I can use it as a growout for plants. I can use it for etc etc etc etc.


I really hope I can get this to work. I think the first step is figuring out the pump I need and how much that will cost. From there its all pretty cheap...just some PVC and vinyl hose unless I buy a manufactured HOB overflow.

My one other thought for it
The only thing I haven't really decided on yet is overflow vs powerhead. It stands to reason that if I do all the calculations right, I should be able to get a pump that will match flow with a powerhead. I already know that I can use a powerhead to push water out of my main tank & into a sump, I just tried that today. I also know that just hooking an identical powerhead up in the sump trying to push water back into the main tank doesn't work, presumably because its flow isn't strong enough after you consider how many feet of head its pushing against.

But, if I could match a pump to my powerhead, then it might be easier to use the system 'on-demand' without worrying about whether or not the siphon is going to begin flow easily.



So, what do you guys think? Am I just being crazy or does this seem legit? Am I late to the ballgame and someone else has already done this?


How exactly would I go about sizing the pump/overflow? I've read chomper's sticky but I don't QUITE get it. If I get a 600gph pump, should I just use piping on the pump side to match 600gph, then on the overflow side use something 4x that big? Will this create a lot of noise?
 
You lost me at "pythons are great" :hypnotize
 
Just my take on it, but I think you are overly complicating a simple process.
Instead of trying to incorporate a vac into any form of existing system, do a separate one.
That is what I did.
If the end game is to get a tank as clean of debris as possible, no matter how much décor you have in the way, a separate system that uses a return flow to “blast” out the crud from the nooks-n-crannies is a must.
Think two pipes, intake and return, used in conjunction.
The return gets the debris out of hiding and the intake sucks it up.
Run that stuff through a micron rated media and your done, without loosing a bunch of water from your tank.
My best results were with a 500`ish GPH pump coupled to a water filter whose media was rated in the 20 micron range.
Not a bunch of money tied up.
$30 or so for the pump and a $20 for the filter. Add another $20 if you don`t have a bunch of hose, clamps, PVC and such lying around.
If you have multiple tanks, you can move this cleaner from tank to tank.
You could even use it as an auxiliary filtering system to polish the water. All you would do is change the filter cartridge from a rust/sediment, 20 micron to a taste/odor charcoal impregnated 10 micron unit.
Not saying your idea wouldn`t work, just seems an awful lot of work with many chances of messing a functioning system up.
 
Definitely sound logic, but part of my purpose is to not have any sort of media to clean after a vacuuming.

I think all I have to do is build the diy overflow that has one pipe in the tank pulling from the bottom of the tank. Put a T with a valve at the top of the tank and connect the hose to one side and the regular intake to the other. Everything else would run like a normal sump. If I'm right, there will be a slight hiccup when switching the valve over but it shouldn't break the siphon.

If I'm wrong and the idea completely fails then I just get rid of the extra t connector and i have a perfectly good sump ;)


Also, are you talking about basically tying the output to the intake so its blasting stuff out while its vacuuming? Does this not make it hard to actually get stuff vacuumed? Did it not make it impossible to not uproot plants when trying to vacuum the crap around the base of them?
 
Also, are you talking about basically tying the output to the intake so its blasting stuff out while its vacuuming? Does this not make it hard to actually get stuff vacuumed? Did it not make it impossible to not uproot plants when trying to vacuum the crap around the base of them?

Vac2.jpg


I`m gonna go out on a limb and say, if a guy has sense enough to put one together, he will have sense enough to learn how to control it.
You can`t see in the pic, but the pump is pulling water through the filter. In order to get good flow, a 500GPH pump was used. I already had it.
You are not getting 500 GPH at the return because of the filter.
I would guess 300 GPH max, if that.
If I could have found a used Magnum 350 I probably would have used it.
Your going to have to clean your filltering media anyway.
With this, you spin off the housing, rinse the cartridge, and your done.
Takes longer to type it than to do it.
If you can`t control/direct the return flow, all that gunk is still stuck where it is.
Yes, you use both hands.
As the gunk gets out into the open, you use the suction to, well, suck it away.
I have sand, so I never had to work out a method of plunging the suction into a pile of gravel.
Suppose it`s do-able.
Where I think your method will fail is not being able to get at the hidden stuff and I think you will not have enough suction to clean the way you imagine.
If you do it your way, show us what you come up with.
Good Luck.
 
Ah I see what you've done. When I read it initially it sounded like you literally tied the two hoses together and were sucking & blowing from the same spot.

Anyways thats still not a system that fits what I have in mind for a couple of reasons. #1, I'm not going to have that contraption sitting in my living room next to the tank. If I had a garage or a fish room it'd be great.

#2, If my idea works, I won't still have to clean filter media, because there won't be any. It'll siphon straight from the tank into an open area in the sump. If anything I would just need to clean a pre-filter sponge on the pump intake once in a while.

#3, The overall goal here is to have something thats always ready to be used, stays in the tank, and doesn't require anything more than opening a valve to start using it. AND it'll be out of sight/out of mind when not in use.


Now, all of this being said, I still have a LOT to consider as far as pro's/con's. The biggest thing being that I'm not sure I'll be able to use the sump as a regular sump with any filter media without getting all the crap I siphon out of the tank stuck in all my media. Obviously I could use a filter sock or something of the sort, but again...defeats the purpose, I just hate cleaning those damn things.

I've already got the pump, picked it up today, and I'll be starting work on the overflow soon. If my idea DOESN'T work, then all I'll have to do is remove a T fitting and replace it with a 90* instead, and I'll have a perfectly operational sump. So there's no great loss if it doesn't work.

If I can't arrange it so that I can use the thing without having any bag or filter pad or anything to clean, then I'll probably just use the sump like normal & keep a powerhead with a media bag & a hose for cleaning. Or my magnum hot250 for that matter.

I think I've got a good idea going, and if it works it'll be fantastic, if not then no harm no foul, I still end up with a sump.
 
Let me know how this works, I always hooked my siphon up to the drain hose and siphoned until I was done. Then refiled the tank, but having the tank as a bare bottom there was rarely a need to vac so I only did it once a month. I IMHO it was worth the $1.00 or $2.00 worth of water to not have to worry about hooking up the siphon simply stick the hose in the tank and turn the ball valve.
 
prober;5017071; said:
Instead of the air powered gravel vac you could put a powerhead on it. More suction and it would still pump the debris into the bag.

I've already done that and made it work...works great. I'm just looking for something 100% built in, always ready to go, and requiring absolutely no drain/fill of water. The powerhead idea works great, but if I can avoid having to clean a bag after vacuuming the tank it'll be that much better.

Let me know how this works, I always hooked my siphon up to the drain hose and siphoned until I was done. Then refiled the tank, but having the tank as a bare bottom there was rarely a need to vac so I only did it once a month. I IMHO it was worth the $1.00 or $2.00 worth of water to not have to worry about hooking up the siphon simply stick the hose in the tank and turn the ball valve.

Will do, I'll be keeping this (or another, not honestly sure where the hell I'm posting right now) thread updated with progress. I have the pump now, I just need to decide on a sump design, get the glass cut and put it all together.



If my idea fails then I'll certainly stick with the powerhead. It has a HOT adapter so I can easily store it in the stand with the hose attached, hang it on the tank when I'm ready to use it, and clean the bag when I'm done. I'm just looking for something that requires absolutely NO work other than grabbing the hose (which would be clipped up in place at the back of the tank) turning a ball valve and siphoning away. I think its do-able, I would just need to clean the filter sock once a week (or once a month, never dealt with a sock I don't know how fast they clog) instead of after every siphoning.

I think I've got a pretty good idea of how I want it to work, and I think it will work like I'm thinking it will, I just need to get going on putting it together and making it happen.
 
Alright Kaiser, you win :p

Through other threads on different forums I've pretty much decided to give up on my sump/fuge idea. Most of the reason is due to only being able to use a 20gal tank which doesn't really allow me the space I really want for a fuge. Other reasons being that I don't really feel like dealing with this alongside everything else I have going on (life in general) right at the moment.

I'm still pretty convinced that I could make it work if I really wanted to, but I think I have a different idea that will be much easier to deal with. Its basically a complete rip-off of your cleaning stand, except it will be contained in my stand, and I think it'll also be a little bit simpler than what you have (simpler for me at least).

Here's basically what I'm thinking...put large diameter PVC on the intake & outtake of the pump, attach vinyl tube to the pvc long enough to do the tank maintenance. Fill the PVC with filter floss & use screens to keep the floss out of the pump & out of the tank. The pvc would be easily removable so I can change the floss without much trouble. I think with regular cleanings & large enough pvc sections I would only need to change the floss once a month or so.

Now, will the pump be capable of drawing water out of the tank, or will I have to feed it with something else? I know for a sump application there's not much chance of equalizing two different pumps (like using a powerhead to feed a sump instead of an overflow...getting the flow rate balanced would probably be impossible). But in a closed-loop system it should work right? That is, IF the pump won't draw water down from the tank on its own.


I tried hooking up my magnum250 and I just didn't like it. I used vinyl tube on the in & out and tried to clean the tank like you talked about. I think if I didn't have to stand on a footstool to get into my tank and didn't have the floating plant coverage that I do it would be a lot easier. But for my application, its just about impossible to have both hands in the tank and still be able to see what you're doing at all. It actually worked better for me to just wave my hand around in areas where i needed to draw up mulm instead of trying to blast it with a filter output. With that in mind I might even just hard-plumb the pumps intake into the tank and only put vinyl hose on the outtake, or use a quick-disconnect system for both sides and have the whole thing hardplumbed, but thats really irrelevant right now.

Hell, for that matter, I could plumb the thing exactly like I was intending to do in the first place...have PVC into & out of the tank, leave a vinyl hose attached to the intake & hide it at the top/back of the tank....
 
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