We are pretty much talking about CaCO3 here....a saturated CaCO3 solution has a pH of 9.3 to 9.8....so yeah, it's possible...
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- Thread starter caribexr2
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We are pretty much talking about CaCO3 here....a saturated CaCO3 solution has a pH of 9.3 to 9.8....so yeah, it's possible...
You asked what evidence do I have? The fact that I have seen thousands upon thousands of WC fish imported from SA (as well as numerous other areas of the world) over the years, where not only was the pH value of the native water much lower than the local water, but after 2-3 days in the bag those values were pushed even lower by the acid produced from 2-3 days of ammonia & solid waste, and an increase of C02 as the oxygen in the bag became depleted.
All of these wild fish were removed from those bags, some with water as yellow as monkey piss, netted, and placed directly into holding tanks where the pH value was approx 8.0. As in all large imports, a few fish do not survive the stress of transport, some are heavily infested with internal or external parasites, some looked to be half dead when they arrived, etc-etc, but the vast majority of all of these imported fish, from water with vastly different pH values, survive and go on to live out a long healthy life in captivity. No pH shock.
I'm not talking about a few tanks, and a few fish, I'm talking about hundreds of tanks, hundreds of different species, and thousands upon thousands of fish - spread across numerous importers of "wild" fish that one would think would be far more sensitive to a sudden shift in pH than domesticly raised fish.
Species such as discus, stingrays, angels, geos, plecos, etc. All of these fish easily acclimate to their new water parameters, and all of them go through a very sudden change in pH.
According to your hypothesis, these fish should all be dead from "pH shock" shortly after landing.
This subject came up years ago on another well known cichlid forum that I used to moderate on, one of the mods there posted the following.
Others were in agreement with him, and stated basically the same thing. Those too were real live experimental observations, just like what I have seen and/or expereinced first hand over the years - and these are in fact consistent with the "science".
You state;
Here's what some plant people, from a well known plant forum had to say on the subject of C02, pH, and osmotic stress.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/92766-ph-solenoid-co2-night-shut-off.html
Sound familiar? Most people posting in that discussion were in agreement, some even stating that pH shock is for the most part a myth.
And you're right, it's not the C02 that kills the fish, but likely a serious drop in 02 levels, caused by the rise in C02, and the fact that at night when plants are not photosynthesizing 02 levels are typically already lower than in the daytime. Just as oxygen can become depleted in a transport bag, 02 can also become depleted in a planted tank when C02 is left running all night. The higher the stock level of fish, the greater the risk one can have of losing fish by morning. I have seen this happen in heavily stocked (non-planted, non C02 injected) tanks with nothing more than a bubble-wand going off in the night. That simple reduction in surface agitation, and reduced 02 exchange, wiped out an entire tank by morning. It had nothing to do with pH, but I'm sure some people out there would have blamed "pH shock", had they tested the pH and found that the value had changed ever so slightly.
I also perform massive water changes, and have for many years. The key is ensuring that the water parameters remain fairly constant, and stable. If you can achieve that even when performing 90% water changes, then it's a non issue. If you can't, then some species, and even some individuals among certain species may not react well to those sudden changes. Ditto to adding or removing large amounts of sodium chloride to your tank water. Not all fish react well to sudden changes in their environment, just as some fish will survive an ammonia spike, others will react negatively, and some will simply die.
The bottom line is the fact that the pH in a tank has dropped, doesn't negate that there aren't other factors at play that may be causing a fish osmoregulatory stress, and even death - just as in a heavily stocked planted tank, when the C02 is left running all night.
As previously stated, the science on all of this is pretty clear, there's no debate as to how fish osmoregulate, in freshwater, or salt water. If you want to believe otherwise, that's certainly your prerogative.
All of these wild fish were removed from those bags, some with water as yellow as monkey piss, netted, and placed directly into holding tanks where the pH value was approx 8.0. As in all large imports, a few fish do not survive the stress of transport, some are heavily infested with internal or external parasites, some looked to be half dead when they arrived, etc-etc, but the vast majority of all of these imported fish, from water with vastly different pH values, survive and go on to live out a long healthy life in captivity. No pH shock.
I'm not talking about a few tanks, and a few fish, I'm talking about hundreds of tanks, hundreds of different species, and thousands upon thousands of fish - spread across numerous importers of "wild" fish that one would think would be far more sensitive to a sudden shift in pH than domesticly raised fish.
Species such as discus, stingrays, angels, geos, plecos, etc. All of these fish easily acclimate to their new water parameters, and all of them go through a very sudden change in pH.
According to your hypothesis, these fish should all be dead from "pH shock" shortly after landing.
This subject came up years ago on another well known cichlid forum that I used to moderate on, one of the mods there posted the following.
Others were in agreement with him, and stated basically the same thing. Those too were real live experimental observations, just like what I have seen and/or expereinced first hand over the years - and these are in fact consistent with the "science".
You state;
Here's what some plant people, from a well known plant forum had to say on the subject of C02, pH, and osmotic stress.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/92766-ph-solenoid-co2-night-shut-off.html
Sound familiar? Most people posting in that discussion were in agreement, some even stating that pH shock is for the most part a myth.
And you're right, it's not the C02 that kills the fish, but likely a serious drop in 02 levels, caused by the rise in C02, and the fact that at night when plants are not photosynthesizing 02 levels are typically already lower than in the daytime. Just as oxygen can become depleted in a transport bag, 02 can also become depleted in a planted tank when C02 is left running all night. The higher the stock level of fish, the greater the risk one can have of losing fish by morning. I have seen this happen in heavily stocked (non-planted, non C02 injected) tanks with nothing more than a bubble-wand going off in the night. That simple reduction in surface agitation, and reduced 02 exchange, wiped out an entire tank by morning. It had nothing to do with pH, but I'm sure some people out there would have blamed "pH shock", had they tested the pH and found that the value had changed ever so slightly.
I also perform massive water changes, and have for many years. The key is ensuring that the water parameters remain fairly constant, and stable. If you can achieve that even when performing 90% water changes, then it's a non issue. If you can't, then some species, and even some individuals among certain species may not react well to those sudden changes. Ditto to adding or removing large amounts of sodium chloride to your tank water. Not all fish react well to sudden changes in their environment, just as some fish will survive an ammonia spike, others will react negatively, and some will simply die.
The bottom line is the fact that the pH in a tank has dropped, doesn't negate that there aren't other factors at play that may be causing a fish osmoregulatory stress, and even death - just as in a heavily stocked planted tank, when the C02 is left running all night.
As previously stated, the science on all of this is pretty clear, there's no debate as to how fish osmoregulate, in freshwater, or salt water. If you want to believe otherwise, that's certainly your prerogative.
I did a 200litre change last night and added aquarium salt to the tank.
They have not fed since I got them but look bulky enough.
The males eyes are not bad, but the females eyes are poor.
They look like a film of wool over them, i was going to catch her and see if it can be removed, but wanted to see what the salts did first.
I have a few green and gold sevs in the tank and they are all doing great, just these new pickups.
Ammonia is zero, Nitrite is zero and there are only traces of Nitrate so the water is fine.
All the other fish are eating Hikari, bits of massivore, krill, prawns etc.
I think they were not looked after properly by previous owner, but I really want them to survive as the male is REALLY red.
They have not fed since I got them but look bulky enough.
The males eyes are not bad, but the females eyes are poor.
They look like a film of wool over them, i was going to catch her and see if it can be removed, but wanted to see what the salts did first.
I have a few green and gold sevs in the tank and they are all doing great, just these new pickups.
Ammonia is zero, Nitrite is zero and there are only traces of Nitrate so the water is fine.
All the other fish are eating Hikari, bits of massivore, krill, prawns etc.
I think they were not looked after properly by previous owner, but I really want them to survive as the male is REALLY red.
Let's just make sure we are talking about the same thing. Please take a moment to look through my other posts.....all high to low.
I never said going from pH5 to pH8 would kill fish, nor did my "hypothesis" indicate that.
Ever wondered why most vendors (= every one I've ordered from) keep the water in their stock tanks at pH7.5-8?
HA! You are quoting Damien Jones? Are you serious? Deleted my own comments about what I really think of him and what he has turned CF into. Suffice to say that he's the VERY REASON I stopped going to CF and will never go back again. I don't even click on CF links when I google things now. The very thought of him has ruined my lunch appetite, and I mean it quite literally.
Yes - I'm sure you'll find plenty of people singing praises for him. Don't bother. I won't buy it.
I'm not sure I understand the logic here.
How do you go from:
- pH drops because of H2CO3
- TDS doesn't change significantly (ignoring the effects of pH drop on dissolved salts for now)
To:
- fish are not affect by pH drop BECAUSE ("as a result" as you put it) TDS doesn't change?
Dumping some HCl to a tank doesn't significantly change tank water TDS either. Are you saying that fish are not going to be affected by pH drop? A bit dangerous, don't ya think?
pH drop as a results of no light + CO2 injection at night is an actual observation by many. In theory O2 concentration should decrease as the concentration of any other dissolved gas increases. I am not aware, however, of any empirical evidence showing O2 level is reduced to such an extent that it consistently kills fish, especially considering many serious plant people don't stock their tank with nearly as many fish, and usually with smaller fish that don't disturb plants.
Specifically, can you point me to the measurements of CO2 and O2 concentrations in planted tanks with CO2 injection, both with and without light? If O2 is indeed depleted as you think it may, it could certainly contribute to fish loss.
A good hypothesis (what you referred to as "science") must be consistent with ALL the observations. When it doesn't, it's either wrong, or there are additional factors at play.
My pH is constant before and after water changes. But do you think removing 1lb 10 oz of salt in 100g water (=~2000ppm in case you are wondering) by a large water change qualifies as keeping TDS constant?
Have you ever heard, from anybody, that removing this level of salt by water changes makes fish burst and die? As a reminder, I think we'd agree that this is a larger difference between bag water and tank water when new fish come in.
I've never personally seen any ill effects after such water changes, nor have I heard any due to this kind of TDS decrease. Is this not directly contradictory to your argument, that only TDS matters but pH doesn't?
I never said pH drop is the only reason. I'm arguing against your assertion that pH drop doesn't matter whatsoever ("a myth") and that it is ALL about TDS.
Let me try this again: if "science" is inconsistent with experimental observations, what good is it? According to your "science", my fish should all be dead after removing 2000ppm TDS. Do I believe your "science", or my own eyes that are seeing the fish all alive and well in my tanks?
I believe in science. It's my profession. I get paid for doing research and teaching science. And it is for this very reason that I emphasize the difference between a theory, a hypothesis, and a possibility.
Pete, I was about to post again before your last comment, just to clear a few things up - which I should have done from the get go. While I believe that generally speaking, as in for most situations that one typically encounters in this hobby, "pH shock" is a myth, and is used as an excuse for everything under the sun if/when someone has issues with their fish, I will agree that in your examples given in this discussion, pH alone more than likely was indeed the cause of loss of life.
Having said that, your situation, and your pH values are what I would personally consider an extreme. I honestly don't know anyone that takes fish from a pH value of 8.0 (along with whatever other water values are present) and drops them into a tank with a pH of 5.5, along with whatever other values may or may not be present. I don't even know anyone that keeps fish in a pH of 5.5. Nor would I expect that most tropical fish in this hobby would perform well when suddenly going from a pH of 5.5, to a pH in the range of 2-3. Are some species of fish acid sensitive, absolutely, no question about that, and I'm sure there is plenty of data available (at least with native NA species) that would support that.
So I apologize for not acknowledging that fact earlier. In the scenario that you have experienced, pH alone (as in acid tolerance values for the species) was most likely the main if not only cause of the problem.
As previously stated, not all fish react well to sudden changes in their environment, just as some fish will survive an ammonia spike, others will react negatively, some will refuse to breed, and some will simply die. The same holds true for many water values, whether it's a sudden drastic change in pH, TDS, salinity, conductivity, etc-etc. Not all fish are created equally, and some species will have greater physiological sensitivity to some of these values, compared to other species. Even the age of the fish can have a great bearing as to the amount of change/stress that each fish/species can tolerate, including pH. Which is most likely why in your last tank crash, some of your geos died between dinner & bedtime, while another geo species in the same tank seemed to survive the sudden increase in acidity. (hopefully they all pulled through)
Usually it's because that's what comes out of their tap, and for the vast majority of tropical fish in the hobby these are known to be safe values. Most importers/vendors have also learned through the years that stability is FAR more important than attempting to hit a magic number, and then struggle to keep it there. In the wild most fish are subjected to changes in pH, temperature, etc, and as long as those changes aren't too extreme, most fish have no problem adjusting to those changes.
But yes, I will agree that there are extreme cases, and yours would be one of them.
PS - I haven't talked to Damian in over a decade, but back in the day I did respect what he had to say on most subjects, certainly a lot more than some of my other fellow mods on CF. I can't imagine that he made that "pH test" story up, but of course his results may have been species dependant as well. Sorry if I ruined your lunch by mentioning his name. lol
Having said that, your situation, and your pH values are what I would personally consider an extreme. I honestly don't know anyone that takes fish from a pH value of 8.0 (along with whatever other water values are present) and drops them into a tank with a pH of 5.5, along with whatever other values may or may not be present. I don't even know anyone that keeps fish in a pH of 5.5. Nor would I expect that most tropical fish in this hobby would perform well when suddenly going from a pH of 5.5, to a pH in the range of 2-3. Are some species of fish acid sensitive, absolutely, no question about that, and I'm sure there is plenty of data available (at least with native NA species) that would support that.
So I apologize for not acknowledging that fact earlier. In the scenario that you have experienced, pH alone (as in acid tolerance values for the species) was most likely the main if not only cause of the problem.
As previously stated, not all fish react well to sudden changes in their environment, just as some fish will survive an ammonia spike, others will react negatively, some will refuse to breed, and some will simply die. The same holds true for many water values, whether it's a sudden drastic change in pH, TDS, salinity, conductivity, etc-etc. Not all fish are created equally, and some species will have greater physiological sensitivity to some of these values, compared to other species. Even the age of the fish can have a great bearing as to the amount of change/stress that each fish/species can tolerate, including pH. Which is most likely why in your last tank crash, some of your geos died between dinner & bedtime, while another geo species in the same tank seemed to survive the sudden increase in acidity. (hopefully they all pulled through)
Usually it's because that's what comes out of their tap, and for the vast majority of tropical fish in the hobby these are known to be safe values. Most importers/vendors have also learned through the years that stability is FAR more important than attempting to hit a magic number, and then struggle to keep it there. In the wild most fish are subjected to changes in pH, temperature, etc, and as long as those changes aren't too extreme, most fish have no problem adjusting to those changes.
But yes, I will agree that there are extreme cases, and yours would be one of them.
PS - I haven't talked to Damian in over a decade, but back in the day I did respect what he had to say on most subjects, certainly a lot more than some of my other fellow mods on CF. I can't imagine that he made that "pH test" story up, but of course his results may have been species dependant as well. Sorry if I ruined your lunch by mentioning his name. lol
All fair points RD, and I enjoyed the discussions.
Some may think I'm (and many others in this area) blessed with soft water. It's actually a curse too. As you might know, I primarily keep SA cichlids from the Orinoco and Amazon drainage basins. Even SA fish from other areas sometimes have problem with my water. When I first got the Uruguay G. balzanii that Ken collected, they just didn't look happy. Not that they were physically ill, but they were hiding a lot and very skittish. I didn't figure out the problem until I asked Ed Burress, who told me that the water was at pH7.4 in the area where they collected the G. balzanii. I bumped my pH up, and the G. balzanii changed their behaviors completely and spawned soon.
You can imagine that sometimes I forget to add SeaChem buffer to specific tanks after water changes. The bare bottom tank, which I use to grow out young fish, is particularly unstable. And over the years when pH crashed, G. balzanii and G. orange head Tapajos were usually the first to go, whereas other fish would recover. So you are definitely right on when you said it depends on the particular species.
Some may think I'm (and many others in this area) blessed with soft water. It's actually a curse too. As you might know, I primarily keep SA cichlids from the Orinoco and Amazon drainage basins. Even SA fish from other areas sometimes have problem with my water. When I first got the Uruguay G. balzanii that Ken collected, they just didn't look happy. Not that they were physically ill, but they were hiding a lot and very skittish. I didn't figure out the problem until I asked Ed Burress, who told me that the water was at pH7.4 in the area where they collected the G. balzanii. I bumped my pH up, and the G. balzanii changed their behaviors completely and spawned soon.
You can imagine that sometimes I forget to add SeaChem buffer to specific tanks after water changes. The bare bottom tank, which I use to grow out young fish, is particularly unstable. And over the years when pH crashed, G. balzanii and G. orange head Tapajos were usually the first to go, whereas other fish would recover. So you are definitely right on when you said it depends on the particular species.
I enjoyed the discussion as well, I guess that over the years I have become a wee bit over sensitive to the term pH shock. 
