Can somone give me info on a black gar i think its a aligator gar but im not sure if you know anything or where i can get one please let me know. Thanks
BLACK GAR
- Thread starter dmcskoolkid
- Start date
lots of gar can be black, especially if their eyes are "inoperative"
the term is "melanistic" and you should be able to search for that word and find more info...there are some recent and semi-recent threads on the subject
the term is "melanistic" and you should be able to search for that word and find more info...there are some recent and semi-recent threads on the subject
pwmin;4446957; said:
an animal thats melanistic can only produce melanin (black) pigment... blind gars and gars with eye problems are often dark or "black"... since they turn color of surrounding. (light tank youll ahve a light gar, dark tank it will turn somewhat darker).. and if they dont see anything from being blind/eye problems they turn black
thats my theory anyways. i dont think a melanistic fish would have any patterns but these dark or "black" gars often have faint patterns 
I can see how that makes sense since when i saw this gar it had an eye bubble on it here is a pic of it i found it on this forum. So i wont be able to find a juvi one?
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=84085&d=1176668677
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=84085&d=1176668677
that seems to describe the occurrenceBlackShark11k;4446974; said:an animal thats melanistic can only produce melanin (black) pigment... blind gars and gars with eye problems are often dark or "black"... since they turn color of surrounding. (light tank youll ahve a light gar, dark tank it will turn somewhat darker).. and if they dont see anything from being blind/eye problems they turn black
That one seems truly melanistic to medmcskoolkid;4447099; said:
BlackShark11k;4446974; said:an animal thats melanistic can only produce melanin (black) pigment... blind gars and gars with eye problems are often dark or "black"... since they turn color of surrounding. (light tank youll ahve a light gar, dark tank it will turn somewhat darker).. and if they dont see anything from being blind/eye problems they turn black
there MIGHT be some correlation between blind gars being darker, but i am yet to see a strong argument for the relationship other than a few we see from FL...which could very well just be gars in a cichlid-infested area whose eyes have been eaten out.
in truth, when you turn the lights out in a tank (tank goes dark) at night, and if you come and shine a light on the fish after a little while you will see that the gars actually go much lighter in color, not darker. they lose almost all pattern and their pupils show but even their eye-strip is usually missing. so this is the opposite of the aforementioned theory.
also keep in mind "blind" species of animals...they are not all black, in fact most of them (blind tetras, cave fish, cave salamanders, etc) are all very light in color.
if you search the net for melanistic gars, you will find that most of them have their eyes perfectly intact...it's a genetic anomaly in those cases, not due to eyesight/organ malfunction. either way, very interesting fish!--
--solomon
my replies in red (hopefully we don't run out of colors over the course of this thread )
Originally Posted by E_americanus
there MIGHT be some correlation between blind gars being darker, but i am yet to see a strong argument for the relationship other than a few we see from FL...which could very well just be gars in a cichlid-infested area whose eyes have been eaten out.
I remember when snookn21 posted up some of these "black" gars = all of which did not have eyes. Also the pic which was just posted above, of a gar with an obvious eye problem = also dark. This seems to suggest blind gars become black, IMO.
it suggests a possibility, but it does not follow the general trend of the mutation. if you look at the thread where john posted the black gars, i suggested it may be from invasive fishes in the area that are known for eating out the eyes (some native species also eat out the eyes of fishes, such as stickleback). john confirmed that there are many cichlids in the area where the black gars were found that are notorious for eating just the eyes.
i thought this may be a major factor because we see melanistic gars from several other locations and different gar species that have no problems with their eyes at all. hence, i think the FL gars that are blind is more coincidence than correlation.
in truth, when you turn the lights out in a tank (tank goes dark) at night, and if you come and shine a light on the fish after a little while you will see that the gars actually go much lighter in color, not darker. they lose almost all pattern and their pupils show but even their eye-strip is usually missing. so this is the opposite of the aforementioned theory.
This is intresting, and it seems to suggest that when the sleep pattern is initiated (turning off lights, release of melatonin... do fish release melatonin actually? i have no idea). What I"m saying is when the animals are kept in a tank with a dark background and base- we know certain groups of fish, when kept in a dark background and base vs. a light background and base will darken. e.g. arowana. They make fake "platinum" arowana often by placing in a tank with a white background or even in styrofoam containers. When placed in an environment like this, they darken. Now whether this also happens with gars, I do not know...
i guess that is what i am trying to explain on this point, i don't know how arowanas respond to the same conditions (now i do, so thanks for the info!), but gars do not respond in the same way. when they are kept in a dark background and in the dark, they go light...pattern is almost completely washed out, it doesn't darken. this does not support a blind gar going dark, since if a gar thought it were in the dark all the time, it should be washed out (theoretically, and if we follow the evidence of the sighted gars in the dark and their response). myself and others have observed this in many individual gars and in all species.
also keep in mind "blind" species of animals...they are not all black, in fact most of them (blind tetras, cave fish, cave salamanders, etc) are all very light in color.
You seem to be suggesting a group of animals which are all blind, instead of a random fish that has lost its eyesight in life or was born genetically deformed and unable to see. Whether it makes a difference, I'd like to note that.
i'm not sure i follow your reasoning here...you were first speaking to a group of gars (those with no eyes) and that group goes melanistic because of their lack of eyes (please correct me if i am misinterpreting) or at least strongly correlated to that issue; in your above green comment you are switching to my example (other blind animal groups) not being correct because you are just speaking of an individual random fish...which are you trying to support, the group or the individual.
if, evolutionarily speaking, animals that dwell in complete darkness and/or lack eyes are nearly all light in color, and your suggestion is that a black gar is black due to it not having eyes, then we have a contradiction in pattern which i do not think is incomparable. pattern suggests that a blind gar would be lighter if anything, not darker.
i'm mainly saying that the blindness factor is not the driving force in melanism in black gars in general (it's usually an effect of spawning and/or just plain melanism).
if you search the net for melanistic gars, you will find that most of them have their eyes perfectly intact...it's a genetic anomaly in those cases, not due to eyesight/organ malfunction. either way, very interesting fish!--
A "true" melanistic gar wouldn't have to blind at all, it is a genetic anomaly as you say. The gars I'm referring too are just darkened by being placed in a dark environment, which has been observed by other fish.
) Originally Posted by E_americanus
there MIGHT be some correlation between blind gars being darker, but i am yet to see a strong argument for the relationship other than a few we see from FL...which could very well just be gars in a cichlid-infested area whose eyes have been eaten out.
I remember when snookn21 posted up some of these "black" gars = all of which did not have eyes. Also the pic which was just posted above, of a gar with an obvious eye problem = also dark. This seems to suggest blind gars become black, IMO.
it suggests a possibility, but it does not follow the general trend of the mutation. if you look at the thread where john posted the black gars, i suggested it may be from invasive fishes in the area that are known for eating out the eyes (some native species also eat out the eyes of fishes, such as stickleback). john confirmed that there are many cichlids in the area where the black gars were found that are notorious for eating just the eyes.
i thought this may be a major factor because we see melanistic gars from several other locations and different gar species that have no problems with their eyes at all. hence, i think the FL gars that are blind is more coincidence than correlation.
in truth, when you turn the lights out in a tank (tank goes dark) at night, and if you come and shine a light on the fish after a little while you will see that the gars actually go much lighter in color, not darker. they lose almost all pattern and their pupils show but even their eye-strip is usually missing. so this is the opposite of the aforementioned theory.
This is intresting, and it seems to suggest that when the sleep pattern is initiated (turning off lights, release of melatonin... do fish release melatonin actually? i have no idea). What I"m saying is when the animals are kept in a tank with a dark background and base- we know certain groups of fish, when kept in a dark background and base vs. a light background and base will darken. e.g. arowana. They make fake "platinum" arowana often by placing in a tank with a white background or even in styrofoam containers. When placed in an environment like this, they darken. Now whether this also happens with gars, I do not know...
i guess that is what i am trying to explain on this point, i don't know how arowanas respond to the same conditions (now i do, so thanks for the info!), but gars do not respond in the same way. when they are kept in a dark background and in the dark, they go light...pattern is almost completely washed out, it doesn't darken. this does not support a blind gar going dark, since if a gar thought it were in the dark all the time, it should be washed out (theoretically, and if we follow the evidence of the sighted gars in the dark and their response). myself and others have observed this in many individual gars and in all species.
also keep in mind "blind" species of animals...they are not all black, in fact most of them (blind tetras, cave fish, cave salamanders, etc) are all very light in color.
You seem to be suggesting a group of animals which are all blind, instead of a random fish that has lost its eyesight in life or was born genetically deformed and unable to see. Whether it makes a difference, I'd like to note that.
i'm not sure i follow your reasoning here...you were first speaking to a group of gars (those with no eyes) and that group goes melanistic because of their lack of eyes (please correct me if i am misinterpreting) or at least strongly correlated to that issue; in your above green comment you are switching to my example (other blind animal groups) not being correct because you are just speaking of an individual random fish...which are you trying to support, the group or the individual.
if, evolutionarily speaking, animals that dwell in complete darkness and/or lack eyes are nearly all light in color, and your suggestion is that a black gar is black due to it not having eyes, then we have a contradiction in pattern which i do not think is incomparable. pattern suggests that a blind gar would be lighter if anything, not darker.
i'm mainly saying that the blindness factor is not the driving force in melanism in black gars in general (it's usually an effect of spawning and/or just plain melanism).
if you search the net for melanistic gars, you will find that most of them have their eyes perfectly intact...it's a genetic anomaly in those cases, not due to eyesight/organ malfunction. either way, very interesting fish!--
A "true" melanistic gar wouldn't have to blind at all, it is a genetic anomaly as you say. The gars I'm referring too are just darkened by being placed in a dark environment, which has been observed by other fish.
I'm going to type out a *very* long reply on this topic tomorrow or friday, I'm just way too tired today.
BlackShark11k;4453582; said:
i'm interested to hear the very long response...especially if it isn't something we have covered already in the very long-response-posts thus far
----solomon