Black water extract

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
RD. said:
When I kept BW tanks I used Ketapang/Indian Almond leaves, far more natural, and IMO far better for your fish than the salts/preservatives and petroleum based dyes found in most of the mass produced products.

As an example;

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
PRODUCT: MICROBE-LIFT Amazon Bio-Colorant

http://www.microbelift.com/files/1312/6928/7969/MSDS-AMAZON-BIO-COLORANT.pdf

Are these substances that ones fish should be bathing in 24/7?

Cellulase, Citric Acid, C.I Acid Blue 9, Disodium Salt, FD&C Red 40, FD&C Yellow No. 5 (Tatrazine), Potassium Sorbate 2, Sodium Benzoate.

FYI - Red 40 is banned in Denmark, Belgium, France, Sweden and Switzerland. Yellow No. 5 is high on the hit list as well, plenty of controversy surrounding the use of both of these dyes. What their long term effect are on the overall health of aquatic organisms is anyones guess, as there is no data to determine any type of safety margin.

The same company also markets & sells;

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
PRODUCT: MICROBE-LIFT Amazon Black & Soft Water Conditioner

http://www.microbelift.com/files/3712/6928/7970/MSDS-AMAZON-BLACK-SOFT-WATER-COND.pdf


Problem is, other than stating that this formula consists of 85% water, the rest is a guessing game as the manufacturer lists the active components as proprietary. Fair enough, I understand the need to protect ones "trade secrets", but this is coming from a company that makes another "Amazon Black Water" product, that is far from what I would personally consider green, earth friendly, or proven to be safe for long term use on aquatic organisms, including fish.

In the above MSDS it states: "Rubber gloves not necessary but recommended." and yet also states: "May cause infection if in contact with open wounds."

I'm not one to go off on a tantrum over what is sometimes stated on an MSDS, I'm trained in this area and have been reading MSDS sheets since they originally came out many years ago, but at the same time I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when ingredients in water additives are hidden whenever possible, when that same company uses ingredients such as Red # 40 & Yellow # 5 in another Amazon product of theirs.

I suspect that if your fish could talk they would say **** all that crap, keep it natural bro. ;)




For those not familiar with Ketapang leaves ............

http://sarawakmedplants.com.my/inde...ts-list&rid=293&rllabel=More+Details&Itemid=4

Ketapang (Terminalia catappa) leaves have been used in SE Asia and elsewhere among fish keepers for their antibacterial, antioxident, and antivirul properties for decades. IMO this type of BW (tannin from leaves) method is not only more natural, it's also far better for the overall health & well being of fish that come from a black water environment.

HTH
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Ive used indian almond leaves, cant get the color i want and they gum up my filter.

The concentrations of those ingredients are incredibly low and for the most part their not bad at all. not worried. Not to mention less then a tablespoon is all i need every wc.

__________________________________________________________________

Go S.Vettel #1 RB8 3X WDC!!!!!!!!!


petspoiler said:
women?! pleeze. you're like one of my grandsons. I can't even visualize you thattaway, it's just wrong.
I forgot all about NLS.

you might wanna cut back on your jet fuel intake.
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http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
 
I only use carbon to remove meds from a tank and then only for a day or two. You could replace the carbon with bio-media as suggested the more the better IMO.

A trick I learned a long time ago is during the summer take peat and fill a filter bag with it then fill a large jar with water and make peat sun tea. In the winter use the filter bag like a giant tea bag boil it on the stove and let it sit. This makes a great home made “black water extract”. Always be sure to monitor your Ph.
 
Aquanero said:
I only use carbon to remove meds from a tank and then only for a day or two. You could replace the carbon with bio-media as suggested the more the better IMO.

A trick I learned a long time ago is during the summer take peat and fill a filter bag with it then fill a large jar with water and make peat sun tea. In the winter use the filter bag like a giant tea bag boil it on the stove and let it sit. This makes a great home made “black water extract”. Always be sure to monitor your Ph.
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+1

Just make sure the peat moss is preferably organic and definitely additive free!

I used to use a big media bag and a 5 gal bucket and i would squish and swish the peat for a few minutes, but i could never keep up with making enough to get the dark color i wanted.

__________________________________________________________________

Go S.Vettel #1 RB8 3X WDC!!!!!!!!!


petspoiler said:
women?! pleeze. you're like one of my grandsons. I can't even visualize you thattaway, it's just wrong.
I forgot all about NLS.

you might wanna cut back on your jet fuel intake.
Click to expand...


http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
 
I used an old mr coffee filled the basket with peat and chopped dried oak and almond leaves..... when the coffee pot filled up I just used the BW brew and ran it through until it was blacker than coffee .. added to aquarium when cooled.. my tetras and discus loved it...
 
There are various methods that one can use to keep the leaves out of your filters, hobbyists have been using leaves of various types in their tanks for many many years, with no issues with "gumming" anything up. Both Tom, (Aquanero) & Mr. Pleco just supplied the OP with some tried & true methods.

The concentrations of those ingredients are incredibly low and for the most part their not bad at all.
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Really, and you would know the various concentrations of each ingredient how exactly? Do you also know the sensitivity level of all species of fish to these various substances, and what potential long term effects that any of them may have on any species of aquatic organism, including fish? Do you have the LC 50 data on all of these various substances to suport your opinion, or for that matter any data whatsover? If so, please share, as I couldn't find any data on the manufacturers website, or even how long they have been marketing their "Amazon" products.

What I do know is this, even in very small quantities, over long term repeated use/exposure some substances can be toxic to fish, and not all species will react the same way to the same substances or the same levels. As an example, at higher levels even extract from Ketapang leaves has been proven to be lethal to fish, some species of fish being more sensitive than others. http://vet.kku.ac.th/journal/pdf/jv181/4.pdf

You may not personally be worried about what types of chemical substances some manufacturers use in these types of man-made formulas, but IMO there is always a cause for concern with regards to the long term use and aquatic life with some of these chemical substances.
 
RD. said:
There are various methods that one can use to keep the leaves out of your filters, hobbyists have been using leaves of various types in their tanks for many many years, with no issues with "gumming" anything up. Both Tom, (Aquanero) & Mr. Pleco just supplied the OP with some tried & true methods.



Really, and you would know the various concentrations of each ingredient how exactly? Do you also know the sensitivity level of all species of fish to these various substances, and what potential long term effects that any of them may have on any species of aquatic organism, including fish? Do you have the LC 50 data on all of these various substances to suport your opinion, or for that matter any data whatsover? If so, please share, as I couldn't find any data on the manufacturers website, or even how long they have been marketing their "Amazon" products.

What I do know is this, even in very small quantities, over long term repeated use/exposure some substances can be toxic to fish, and not all species will react the same way to the same substances or the same levels. As an example, at higher levels even extract from Ketapang leaves has been proven to be lethal to fish, some species of fish being more sensitive than others. http://vet.kku.ac.th/journal/pdf/jv181/4.pdf

You may not personally be worried about what types of chemical substances some manufacturers use in these types of man-made formulas, but IMO there is always a cause for concern with regards to the long term use and aquatic life with some of these chemical substances.
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Id prefer not to argue and keep this thread positive and more importantly open.

I have seen nothing BUT great results using this product over the last 9-10months and I've only heard good things about it from members and my lfs, there is nothing natural of keeping fish in a glass box to begin with. Like i said above, i have used every method described and for me this is the easiest and most cost effective way to keep my water dark and my fish are never sick or unhealthy, if i thought this product caused damage i wouldn't use it. There are many man made substances in the hobby, from food to dechlor, its all about results and testimonials!

Its all opinion and you have expressed yours. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa.

CAM00316_zpsc5d0b831.jpg



And remember microbe lift makes a lot of pond and lake products, they have many different coloring products on the market, the hard/landscape company i work for has been using microbe lift products for some time now and our commercial supplier gets us great deals and highly reccommends the brand.


__________________________________________________________________

Go S.Vettel #1 RB8 3X WDC!!!!!!!!!


petspoiler said:
women?! pleeze. you're like one of my grandsons. I can't even visualize you thattaway, it's just wrong.
I forgot all about NLS.

you might wanna cut back on your jet fuel intake.
Click to expand...


http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
 
That wasn't an argument Vet, that was me actually using facts to support my opinion. You have been using this product for a mere 9-10 months, yet are quick to state; "I have tried every product from tetra to serra, even my own homebrew peat extract and microbe lift amazon bio colorant is the easiest/best way to add a natural theme to your tank, if your fish could talk they would say **** clear water!" ......... to which I simply pointed out the weak link in that logic.

Easiest perhaps, but best? Best at what, coloring your water brown? Congrats, my comments had to do with the long term safety of the product - to which you could not address or answer any of my questions or concerns.

You posted your opinion, I'm fine with that, but don't question the validity of my concerns after 9 months of experimenting on a single tank. Some of us posting in this discussion were using black water extracts before you hit your first pair of diapers, you might want to consider that before your are so quick to dismiss something that we have to say on the subject.

My comments on MFK are an attempt to assist those who have less real world experience than I do with regards to certain subjects, those subjects where I have little to no experience I sit on my hands & learn from fellow hobbyists. Something that you may want to try more often.

To the OP - good luck with whatever you decide.
 
redbelly90 said:
Could I just use sponge or fiter floss in the penguin 350 and then pack my 306 canister with biomax ?
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I've been using the Aquaclear foam inserts for my Marineland Biowheel 350 gph. I bought the 110 foam insert and tore two pieces that fit real snug like. Excellent mechanical filtration and you song have to replace it for a long time, just rinse one out real good with wc water once every couple of weeks depending on the mess created by your fish.

Sent from my ADR6350 using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
 
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