Central American community tank problems

duanes

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Most Central American communities work at best, “maybe” 50% of the time (if that).

African communities (and even many S American communities ) have much better successful community track records, and to me, the reasons are obvious.
In the African rift lakes, myriads (almost one thousand) of species live together in one lake, and to survive in such densities must coexist without killing each other, and much is the same in Amazonia, where hundreds of species much coexist in rivers.

For a number of reasons Central America is quite different.
It seems once a species takes hold in a area, over time, it drives out most other cichlid species.
In northern Mexico, the Herichthys carpintus/labridens group are the dominant cichlids, covering waters over thousands of square miles, franging rom Texas to Veracruz they are just about the only clade of cichlids found.
Nosferatu (Herichthys labridens left........... Herichthys carpintus right
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On the northern west coast of Mexico, Mayaheros beanii dominates only certain rivers, further south, Amphilophines thrive, but are confined to certain watersheds.
male Mayaheros beanii left..................... a female in spawning dress right
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It is the similar on Caribbean islands. On Hispaniola only Nandopsis haitiensus exists, on Cuba, only N tetracanthus exists, except in an isolated area where N ramsdeni is separated by geographyical boundaries
N haittiensus left.........................................................N. tetracanthus right
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In the Yucatan, there are a number of species, but they are often separated Cenote to Cenote.
In Cenote Cristalino and Azul the dominant cichlid is Rocio (Jack Dempseys),
https://studio.youtube.com/video/txmi1mng_XQ/edit
In Eden Cenote Mayaheros uropthalmus dominate.
And in certain Cenotes where caves collapse barriers over time, to connect, and combine species, one or the other species seems to do well, while the other, not so well. Like the ones in the video below, where the JD population seems to suffer the presence of the Mayaheros uropthalmus.
https://studio.youtube.com/video/eBFAtr6ZfIs/edit

And in rivers where a couple species do share, different habitats within the rivers keep them from clashing.
In the river Mamoni Panama, where I collect, Andinoacara are found, but mainly in oxbows and slack water habitats, hardly ever mixing with the other dominant cichlid, Darienheros calobrensus, that prefers a rheophillic habitat.
Andinoacra directly below, Darienheros underneath it .

IMG_2157.jpegIMG_8566.jpeg



This preference for different habitats keep territorial riffs to a minimum.

Aquarists might pose, that aquariums are hardly natural. And here in, lies the problem. In the Mamoni river at least an acre of space keeps these 2 species of cichlids separate, where even in the largest aquariums nothing remotely close to that space is available, putting cichlids constantly in each others faces.

One other factor.
Most Central America cichidophiles want their tanks to be filled with cichlids, because that’s what they like.
But in nature that is seldom reality.
Often in nature, for every one or two cichlids found within an acre of space, there are 50 or more tetras making up the biotope.
In most cases, the density of cichlids in Central America, never comes close to the way aquarists seem to want to often stock their tanks.
How many cichlids can you find in the stretch of river, in the video below
Cichlid (Chogorro), in the Rio Utive, Panama

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jjohnwm

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Many aquarists buy very small, very young fish...stock them together in tight quarters at densities that are many thousands of times higher than they would ever exist in nature...watch them for a week or two...and then declare that they have successfully created a community.

But few of those casual hobbyists are heard from a year later, when the fish have grown larger and more aggressive and have "auto-culled" their populations down to levels that can be sustained in those tiny quarters. Fewer still pipe up even further down the road when their tanks contain only one or two battle-scarred veterans...but by that time most hobbyists have "re-homed" these fighters and started the cycle over again.

I'm not too sure that I buy the idea that a community tank should or can consist of species that are found in the same area in nature...if for no other reason than the simple fact that predators and prey co-exist in identical locations in nature, but are a poor choice for co-habitation in an aquarium. Multiple species co-exist when each occupies or utilizes its own "niche" in the environment, and can exploit slightly different food sources. It's possible to stock a pond with a combination of Fathead Minnows, Bluegills and Largemouth Bass and attain a more-or-less balanced community that allows each species to grow to adulthood by feeding on the smaller ones...but don't expect that to work in even the largest indoor aquarium.

The "in your face!" factor must always be considered when choosing a combination of fish species to house together, who in a typical aquarium will never be more than a couple or at most a few feet apart. In a fish tank, it's not enough for the inhabitants to be found together in nature, and in fact it may be a bad thing if they are. If the fish are different enough from one another...and if feeding is sufficient...and most importantly if breeding is not encouraged!...then the whole "biotope" thing is just a personal preference. Fish from opposite corners of the globe can and will do well together if suited to similar water conditions and chosen with an eye towards aggression...just as fish that live together in the same weed patch or sunken brush pile may be the worst possible choice for co-habitation, depending upon diet and behaviour.

I also hear a lot about disease transmission, which can certainly be an issue with wild-caught fish. Certainly an Asian wild-caught fish may carry pathogens that a S.American fish cannot resist. This is where quarantine comes in; I think that an extended quarantine period is essential for just about any new fish, and especially so for wild-caught ones. But the typical "community" tank is full of domestically-bred fish, often many generations removed from the wild. And the fish that were collected here...and then shipped there...and then re-shipped over there...and then sent to the LFS or your fishtank...have been through so many different tanks and containers and water changes, and exposed to such a variety of other fish from other locations, that fretting about what diseases they might or might not have brought in or picked up along the way is pretty futile; that ship has sailed. Concerns about some obscure fish parasite from Borneo getting in and decimating your S.American Angelfish are more illusory than real.

I will look at what a fish eats, how it lives, what its water requirements are and what is know about its general aggression level and then weigh all the factors before deciding what other fish it might be able to live with. Anything beyond that is, again, just personal preference IMHO.
 

duanes

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Yes, the juvie factor.
Most young cichlids find safety in numbers, so multiple juvies together usually works to their advantage in nature providing confusion to predators.
But that is a temporary temporary condition for cichlids, because once these juvies grow into territorial adults, the entire scenario flips.
I often see posts of people complaining the favorite cichlid becoming an A hole over night.
That fish is "not" being an A hole.
Its doing what it has been programmed to do as a mature adult over millions of years of evolution, in the space allowed.

To a human, a 6ft glass box filled with water in the living room may seem like a giant monolith.
But to a mature 10 inch cichlid (such as a jack dempsey), compared to the amount of water it lives in, in nature, that 6 ft tank, is little more than puddle.
1698081676289.png1698081472096.png
Above a couple of Cenotes where JDs are found.
 

duanes

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So, for what I could afford, and the space my house allowed for, (in WI) the largest tanks I could get, away with having were restricted to tanks to the 6 ft range.
Those in the 125 to 180 gal volume sizes, which were usually only able to accommodate only 1 pair of medium, to slightly larger CA cichlids at a time, and maybe some non-cichlid dither. fish (but only if they weren't obligate predators)
1698151018207.png
The 6 ft tank above, was made to look tiny, by the pair of haitiensus it held for over 5 years.
As did the 6 ft tank for the pair of motaguense below.
1698151158954.png
Some others, where just a pair made 6 ft tanks like puddles were Vieja, Chuco, and N tetracanthus
1698151279180.png1698151343242.png1698151410865.png

I did utilize smallish 75 gal tanks, but only for the smaller CA cichlids like Amatitalania, Crytoheros, and Herotilapia,
1698151543349.png 1698151634781.png1698151692710.png
and Panama's panamense, and A nanoluteus
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For me, non predatory S Americans, and insectivorous CAs were much easier to keep in less than 6 ft tanks with dither types
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At the moment, current my 180 gal, contains a pair of Andinoacara, and shoal of similar sized local tetras
IMG_2218.jpegIMG_2181.jpeg
 
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feez

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Morning good people hope u well i have a 71 gallon tank 2 blue acaras 5cm went and got golden deacom similar size and cocholate chiclid about 12cm and 1 geophagus surinamensus 10 cm the deacon and choclate combined and attacked the geo got and oscar to try and calm thing ls down the geo beat him up
Next day returned all only kept the 2 acaras
Please help i need to build my tank with compatible fish

So i have 2 acaras 5cm
I paid for 1 threadfin hekeli pick up weekend
I have credit for the geos which family still want
How can i set up my tank with no issues
Thanks in advance
 
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duanes

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To me, as are my suggestions throughout,......and the theme of this thread.
I consider a 71 gal tank only large enough for one pair of small to moderate sized cichlids, and some shoaling dither fish.
Even though th acaras are generally considered to be mild mannered S Americans, that minimal size tank is not large enough for more cichlids .
The tank is too small for the Geophagines (which include the Acarichthys), too small for even 1 oscar alone.or one individual chocolate.

If it were me, I'd keep only the 2 acaras, and only add appropriately sized, dither fish such as tetras.
Being a biotope guy, the tetras I'd choose would be geographically correct tetra species from northern S Ameica and/or Trinidad, where the Acaras are endemic.

If you are at a loss of what to choose......
Below is an extensive list of all freshwater species from the area where Acara come from, and are successful in nature.
List of Freshwater Fishes reported from Trinidad and TobagoFishBasehttps://fishbase.mnhn.fr › Country › CountryChecklist

If you peruse the list above, you will note there are only 4 endemic cichlid species on it.
So that should tell you something about what species would be appropriate tank mates.
 
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tlindsey

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Morning good people hope u well i have a 71 gallon tank 2 blue acaras 5cm went and got golden deacom similar size and cocholate chiclid about 12cm and 1 geophagus surinamensus 10 cm the deacon and choclate combined and attacked the geo got and oscar to try and calm thing ls down the geo beat him up
Next day returned all only kept the 2 acaras
Please help i need to build my tank with compatible fish

So i have 2 acaras 5cm
I paid for 1 threadfin hekeli pick up weekend
I have credit for the geos which family still want
How can i set up my tank with no issues
Thanks in advance
Welcome aboard
 

AR1

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Morning good people hope u well i have a 71 gallon tank 2 blue acaras 5cm went and got golden deacom similar size and cocholate chiclid about 12cm and 1 geophagus surinamensus 10 cm the deacon and choclate combined and attacked the geo got and oscar to try and calm thing ls down the geo beat him up
Next day returned all only kept the 2 acaras
Please help i need to build my tank with compatible fish

So i have 2 acaras 5cm
I paid for 1 threadfin hekeli pick up weekend
I have credit for the geos which family still want
How can i set up my tank with no issues
Thanks in advance
welcome to MFK
 

SilverArowanaBoi

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Morning good people hope u well i have a 71 gallon tank 2 blue acaras 5cm went and got golden deacom similar size and cocholate chiclid about 12cm and 1 geophagus surinamensus 10 cm the deacon and choclate combined and attacked the geo got and oscar to try and calm thing ls down the geo beat him up
Next day returned all only kept the 2 acaras
Please help i need to build my tank with compatible fish

So i have 2 acaras 5cm
I paid for 1 threadfin hekeli pick up weekend
I have credit for the geos which family still want
How can i set up my tank with no issues
Thanks in advance
Welcome to the fun group. lol.

Like duanes@ said, definitely no Oscars, or chocolate cichlids. Dither fish would be the best option.
 
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