ceramic rings

[yogurt_21]

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/...o-communicateCool-Hand-Luke-Paul-Newman-Luke-
backup link one uses flash the other quicktime

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/201/chl-communicate.wav
lol

I'm curious at bdericks experiment as I can do this easily tonight, I have a 100g setup with a 55g wet/dry, to get rid of "bio" all I have to do is remove a drawer. then it's purly mechanical filtration and tank surface area, this tank is bare bottom already so it's ripe for experiment as well. not to mention the fish can be moved at the first sign of trouble into the temp pond which is already up and cycled with my 2 pacus in it.

though I'm already certain of the results, the tank is well established and not throroughly overstocked.

it's interesting to see how people see things. What I see here is a failure to truly understand one another, if there needs to be tests done to bring everyone to the same point, then so be it, I'm game.

In the end the goal is healthy fishes and happy keepers (jacked from the bradley methods "healthy mommy healthy baby") so it doesn't really matter anyways. As long as new keepers give adeqaute turnover, enough surface area, and enough tanks size for the fish kept I'm happy.

 

[Bderick67]

An important factor of this discussion is, the people who manufacture ceramic rings want you to believe that their product is *necessary* for your fish to survive and thrive, and thus you pay them whatever fee they decide their rings are worth.

What I believe is true however is, virtually anything with high surface area to volume ratio will work as a place for beneficial bacteria to grow. I use mountain dew bottle caps, because I have them in great abundance.

(Warning, made up numbers for the sake of discussion below)
if 1 ceramic ring grew 1 ounce of bacteria, 1 mountain dew cap might only grow 1/2 ounce of bacteria. But, since mountain dew bottle caps are free and I have a ton of them at my house, I can use twice as many and have the same amount of bacteria and not have spent $16 per liter on perfectly engineered ceramic rings.

You are using the "Mtn Dew caps" as bio media. The argument here is that your tank does not need bio media. What do you think would happen to the health of your tank if you where to remove these Mtn Dew caps?

 

[xaznkewlguyx]

Are you guys still argueing about using bio media vs not using media?

Either way the OP is going to use it.. so I don't know why you guys continue to argue. He just wanted to know which one was better, which he knows now that it does not matter.

 

[Bderick67]

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/...o-communicateCool-Hand-Luke-Paul-Newman-Luke-
backup link one uses flash the other quicktime

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/201/chl-communicate.wav
lol

I'm curious at bdericks experiment as I can do this easily tonight, I have a 100g setup with a 55g wet/dry, to get rid of "bio" all I have to do is remove a drawer. then it's purly mechanical filtration and tank surface area, this tank is bare bottom already so it's ripe for experiment as well. not to mention the fish can be moved at the first sign of trouble into the temp pond which is already up and cycled with my 2 pacus in it.

though I'm already certain of the results, the tank is well established and not throroughly overstocked.

it's interesting to see how people see things. What I see here is a failure to truly understand one another, if there needs to be tests done to bring everyone to the same point, then so be it, I'm game.

In the end the goal is healthy fishes and happy keepers (jacked from the bradley methods "healthy mommy healthy baby") so it doesn't really matter anyways. As long as new keepers give adeqaute turnover, enough surface area, and enough tanks size for the fish kept I'm happy.

If you where to remove all your bio at once, I would think that your tank would crash do to a large ammonia spike. The key would be to remove small portions of bio at a time. Giving the beneficial bacteria(BB) a chance to colonize in other areas. Of course these other areas would be either inside your tank(surface of your glass) or it will take residents in the mechanical media of your sump. So as long as you don't clean your glass you'll have BB in the tank. As long as you don't change out your mechanical media you'll have BB in your sump. However if you do both the prementioned, then you have to rely on the glass surfaces within you sump or overflow to provide enough area for BB to grow.

Personally, common sense would show that for you to do this experiment is senseless. Except that there are those that will only be happy if enough experiments are done to continually prove their opinions wrong, though even then the "buts" and "ifs" are likely to flow.

 

[yogurt_21]

If you where to remove all your bio at once, I would think that your tank would crash do to a large ammonia spike. The key would be to remove small portions of bio at a time. Giving the beneficial bacteria(BB) a chance to colonize in other areas. Of course these other areas would be either inside your tank(surface of your glass) or it will take residents in the mechanical media of your sump. So as long as you don't clean your glass you'll have BB in the tank. As long as you don't change out your mechanical media you'll have BB in your sump. However if you do both the prementioned, then you have to rely on the glass surfaces within you sump or overflow to provide enough area for BB to grow.

Personally, common sense would show that for you to do this experiment is senseless. Except that there are those that will only be happy if enough experiments are done to continually prove their opinions wrong, though even then the "buts" and "ifs" are likely to flow.

your opinion is in direct opposition with the facts of filtration
my mechanical media has bb on it, so do the tank walls, bottom, sump walls, bottom, decoration etc.

this is what nc_nutcase has been telling you. but you're starting to sound fanatical at the "biomedia" idea, in whcih case no matter what eveidence is brough against you ti wont matter, you'll find some excuse to dismiss it. obviously I use media with increase surface area to handle high amounts of waste but it's not the end all eb all fo my filtration system. after all if my pump shuts off for say 6 hours like it did last week due to apower failure in thenenigborhood, you're stating that my fish would have died, they didn't.

 

[Bderick67]

Well I also base my opinion on what I do with the filter floss that is in my sump. Once a month it is thrown away, now tell me this isn't a set up for an ammonia spike. In your case your sump is rather large compared to some. The sump I am running on my 450g has a volume of around 32-35g and is only half full of water.

Do you not clean your sump in a way that could be damaging to the BB in it?

Explain how you figure that I said your fish would die after having the filter being shut off for 6 hours?

 

[Bderick67]

Well here is the 150g, one of the rena xp3s has been removed. Ammonia test shows level at zero.

 

[yogurt_21]

lol well it seems that I've misread someone again lol. i apologize for the post above I was at work and one of my programmers was swearing something was true that I was swearing wasn't. Sorry to take it out on you.

anyway my 6 hour comment should have stated that 6 hours without the pump was 6 hours without access to the "bio media" and the tank didn't crash. though this will definitely be tested much longer to see the results of several weeks of build up.


and yes you are right, my sump is large in comparison with my tank. I guess my 125 is similar now that it has a 45g sump. but hey I like the sump to be able to hold a lot of water in case of a pump failure.

Anywho
Setup
100g tank 60"x18"x 21'
55g sump 48"x12.5"x20.5"
2 3/4" overflows
1 600gph pump @ 3.5' head (so 600gph in this setup)
3 drawer media top mechanical, middle "bio", bottom storage -lol
Ammo reading 0 before removal
Stock list
Tank
1 7" RD
1 5" JD
1 3.5" JD
1 5" Highfin Spotted Pleco
1 3" Chocalate Pleco
Sump
2 2" Silver sail fin mollies (1 male 1 female)
2 2" Sunburst platy's (both female)
1 5" Rainbow Shark

"bio Drawer" removed will wait an hour and post back pics and ammo results.

 

[yogurt_21]

been an hour and I tested the parameters, nothing changed with a drawer removed. and you will note by the photos I didn't add in another drawer simply moved an exiting drawer up so not only did I remove the "bio media" surface area but several additional square feet of drawer surface area as well.

You will note that the submersed canister that was in the first pics has also been rmeoved. this housed mechanical media for my 125g and was operating as the backup filter when the pump briefly died on that tank. That tank never crashe despite hte fact that the tetra whisper 60 hooked to the submersed canister had no "bio media" though I will grant that my 125 does have some substrate.

I should also note that bderick your experiment is not controlled in that when you remove an xp3 you not only cut out media and surface area, but you also are removing flow. My turnover in this case has not changed at all, I simply removed my "bio media" drawer making it no different other than that fact.

In this case I'd recommend removing the filter media from the xp3 and then hooking it back up to keep up the flow rate form your previously working system. since we are only targeting "bio media" decreasing flow adds another variable not tested for.

oh yeh and the RD in the cave only hangs out in there when i have the camera up, apparently it doesn't like my kodak. lol

 

[Toby_H]

That “opinion” is based on 20~25 years of personal experience of maintaining aquariums not ever relying on “bio media”… That opinion is supported by the FACT that this hobby existed for MANY years long before manufacturers came up with the idea of bio media…
　
If bacteria could thrive before the idea of “bio media” was made up… why would you now be xxxxxx enough to believe that “bio media” is needed?
　
　
For those of you turning your filtration upside down to prove a point… please do so wisely and be prepared to water change as needed if/when things go wrong…
　
　
Bderick - I would question your results because you have something to prove and are going to come up with results that support your believe, by hook or by crook… and FYI, you didn’t get me to accept a darn thing… I’ve noted overstocked bare bottom tanks with no décor as a possible situation that might need bio media for years…