ceramic rings

[vfc]

Looks the 150g has recovered from tthe removing of the first xp3 as ammonia and nitrite levels are zero. Tommorrow there will be a 50% WC, will have to see how the tank deals with the 1.0ppm of ammonia in the tap water that will be added during the WC

You reduced your bio-media by ~42% and the ammonia has gone to zero. So I can make an early conclusion you already had >40% more bio-media than you needed.

BTW - I put four large African Cichlids in a 26G holding tank with only a power head running. The tank had an inch of gravel and nothing else. They ended up staying in the tank for nearly six months before I took them to a LFS. Ammonia remained at zero the whole time. So I have the same experience as nc_nutcase. I also had tanks in the 70's and 80's with nothing but filter floss and charcoal in the HOB filters. I guess nitrifying bacteria must have evolved into a weaker species over the years.

Here's a scanned picture of one of my tanks in 1974. Check out the monster sized HOB filter motors.

 

[Bderick67]

You reduced your bio-media by ~42% and the ammonia has gone to zero. So I can make an early conclusion you already had >40% more bio-media than you needed.

Very true, though the reason for running two canister filters was to provide redundancy. The increase of bio media was just a result of this. I knew that my tank could easily survive the removal of one of the filters, as it was set up for in case this happened. This had been previously tested by myself on a few different occassions.

It may be that I will be able to get down to just running the two AC110s with just sponges. Since the sponges will become the bio media, it will be interesting to see what happens when I remove one of them.

 

[12 Volt Man]

if the AC's are already on the tank, they are already biomedia. they will be full of nitrifiers.

 

[Bderick67]

if the AC's are already on the tank, they are already biomedia. they will be full of nitrifiers.

Yes they are already one the tank. The sponges receive weekly cleanings, which consist of running them under hot tap water until clean. Though I don't know how much BB survives this.

Personally I don't believe I'll be able to get to that point though.

 

[tcarswell]

your experiment while seeming to be based on surface area is reducing flow every time you take away an xp3 thus adding an untested variable which will always skew results and allow people to toss your finding aside based on the fact that an untested variable that was not part of your hypothesis was included.

removing media is all that is being tested for yet you are now created dead spots of flow by taking away the whole filters. As I stated before, take out the media and keep all 3 xp3's going like they were before. Otherwise you're setting your experiment up to be debunked.

Wow that was fast ,

And yes agreed X2 at least keep the same flow but not the same media allotment. IE powerhead...

 

[brianp]

Well, I really didn't think I was going to offer any further commentary on this subject, but I think some things are not being considered.

It seems we all agree that sponges, filter floss, carbon beds, gravel beds and more advanced materials, such as sintered quartz and ceramic rings all have significant surface areas and all will support the growth of bacteria. My sense is that we also probably agree that a collection of the more mundane substrates is, in many cases, sufficient to oxidize nitrogenous waste. However, I don't think that a direct correlation in function can be made between let's say, a sponge filter or floss pad and a bed of ceramic rings. The reason for this is that these mechanical media types are placed directly into the uunfiltered water stream. This means that they will accumulate debris, clog, become hypoxic and waste oxidation will change over time. In contrast, these "special" biomedias are always preceded by mechanical media and so, their performance remains relatively consistent over time. Ceramic rings and quartz spheres also have much higher surface area per unit volume than these mechanical media types. To me, it seems that ceramic rings and sintered quartz sphere media types are specifically designed to facilitate the highly efficient oxidation of nitrogenous waste, while these mechnaical media types do it as a "sideline", with unven performance, depending upon how much debris they have accumulated. Finally, I just wanted to add that I believe the importance of oxygen delivery to the bacteria is often overlooked. This process only occurs by diffusion and this is a short-range delivery system. As debris accumulates, you lose more and more of the bacteria deeper within sponges and polyster pads. So, it's inevitable that thier efficiency will decrease over time.

And by the way, I am not offering these comments because I feel that anyone has to be spoon-fed. It's simply a matter of trying to provide all the facts.

 

[Toby_H]

Bderick, If your 150 gal has been up and running for some time… and you change one thing about it (quantity of “bio media&#8221 then your experience with the set up prior to the change can serve as the “control” for your experiment. But as suggested, if you change multiple things (quantity of “bio media” & flow rate) then we do not know which change to ‘blame’ any changes on…
　
　
I wouldn’t say “every” test needs a control. For example doing a fishless cycle on a tank with a measured amount of surface area. The purpose is to relate the amount of ammonia that is oxidized in a system with a given a surface area. No control is needed.
　
Sure I could set up a 10 gal with bio media, but what point would it serve? We all know it will be able to oxidize more ammonia per day due to being able to house more bacteria. But since it will be an unquantified amount of surface area, no conclusions will be able to be drawn from this “control”…
　
BrianP, While I agree with your explanation of what “bio media” (note quotations) is and how it is properly used… the theory you explained that makes it so ‘efficient’ is what I and some others are debating. I’m not saying your science isn’t true, I’m saying these are irrelevant details as any old thing will do. And to qualify that statement we use the example of many many years of successful fish keeping prior to the introduction of “bio media” (note the quotations).
　
　
I simply do not understand how anyone can embrace the side of the debate that suggests “bio media is needed”, when the hobby existed for many many years prior to the creation of “bio media” and matured systems had no problem keeping ammonia/nitrites at zero…
　
No one is saying “Bio Media” doesn’t work… it does, bacteria can and will live on it… our argument is that bacteria will live and grow on just about anything and in typical situations there is already an ample amount of space for it to grow… thus… in typical situations “bio media” isn’t needed…
　
I think this rather simple debate is being pulled and twisted all over the board by overlooking the most simple basic truths…
　
　
I do have concern that complex “testing” is going to be performed and “blame” for certain outcomes will be misplaced and false conclusions will be drawn…

 

[yogurt_21]

54 hours without "bio media" and the tank is running strong.

ammo 0
nitrite 0
nitrate ~45ppm

I think I'm going to bump up the w/c to tomorrow. The stock has been increased and it's beginning to show. lol

for the experiment with a control i think I'm going to go with 3 10g's. I'll then use submersible pumps and an over top style sump more commonly seen in asian tanks. this will allow me to operate without a stand as these will be on the ground in the garage.



And yes it is evident that the recent craze for "bio media" has been in contrast to prior fish keeping. After all any koi articles I have read from some of the best in the business who have been keeping koi for 20-30 years or more, make no mention of it.

edit: alright due to lack of proper test setup and really lack of results I'm closing the 100g experiment and instead focusing on setting up the 3 10g's.
(the fact that prior to the test I was about to setup the sump as a ref might have something to do with this lol)
after 54.5 hours I've not seen a single spike in ammo or nitrite this was even after adding stock. Let's see if that holds true when a control is used.

 

[Toby_H]

There are many times where a control group is required for firm results but it is not a necessity for everything… Grab a pair of calipers and measure something. No control group there but it’s a pretty darn accepted form of measuring…
　
Since your “experiment” is : to see if your tank needs bio media… then : see if your tank needs bio media… it’s as simple as that…
　
　
I think it’s when we start “refining” our experiments that we are risking making false conclusions. None of us are using laboratory conditions nor laboratory testing equipment. I know in ideal conditions with ideal equipment my 10 gal experiment should be able to tell us how many ml of ammonia X square inches of bacteria can oxidize into nitrates in 24 hours… But since I’m playing around with uncelebrated drip tests comparing results to a color card (lots of room for error), I’m not even going to attempt to find those numbers for my own use, much less risk misleading you guys with them. I simply want to use it to give me a “big picture” idea of what’s going on…
　
　
And one thing I’m learning with it, once the initial cycle was done, the colony is expanding much slower than I suspected… I’m not sure what that means or what it’s cause is. I’m also smart enough not to jump the gun and make assumptions based on this very little bit of information. I hope you are too ;-) I’ll keep yas posted.

 

[fwiffo]

lol, i get a kick out of people who throw chemistry terms around here, like "oxidize". what a joke.
the real kicker is that with all this stuff about bio media, i personally have never seen any data or seen any true experiment (done by professional chemsitry lab, not an amatuer, but the real scientists) that proves that one media is better than another. i think alot of it is just marketing campaigns among companies to keep selling products, but hey that's just my humble opinion.

this thread is entertaining though- who would have thought bio media would enrage so much passion!!!