Chasing pH

[duanes]

For most bread and butter and common aquarium fish, the idea of chasing pH is a moot point. But......
For certain species pH is important (especially cichlids, and some tetras).

For fish that come from certain soft water, black water areas, like the Orinoco/Atabpo rivers, and other black water rivers in Amazonia, a low pH is important.
These fish have evolved tp live in pH 5 (sometimes lower) , soft water, and unless these parameters are met, they are often become susceptible to chronic diseases like HITH, if kept in normal (US and European) hard, high pH tap water, because they don't have resistance to the bacteria in are adapted to those water. types

On the other extreme, fish that come from the rift lakes of Africa, Great Lakes of Nicaragua, or many Central American rivers have evolved to live in high pH (8 and above) water, and are susceptible to chronic diseases like bloat, because they have evolved little or no resistance to the bacteria present in soft low pH water.

So does this mean we should chase (read alter) our tap water to match. Maybe...... if we have the expertise, and fortitude to keep up that regime.

Or.....what I consider to be the lessor of evils.
To only acquire species that fit with the water we are stuck with. (or I suppose we could move, or acquire RO/DI systems)

This does mean doing a little research before randomly buying, and throwing fish together. It may mean

Putting a fish like an an Altum angel that prefer a pH of 5, and soft water, with a rift lake mbuna, that prefers a pH 8, and hard water is not adviseable as far as water parameters go.
Or an Amphilophine that prefer a pH of 8-9, with a cardinal tetra, or Uaru fernandeyzepezi that prefer a low pH, below 4-6, is also a ridiculous, due to water parameters alone.

There are @ 3000 species of cichlids world wide, "some" that like soft water, "some" that from neutral water, and are very adaptable, and "some" that prefer or need highpH, liquid rock water to stay healthy long term.
So matching to tap water should not be a difficult endeavor. although not always getting exactly what we wan in that very moment may not be feasible..

Below a shot of a nitrate (left, undetectable) pH test (right, 8+) in the Mamoni river in Panama

Below some cichlids, tetras, and plecos, from that river


My tap water has a pH of 8.2, and is very hard.
Would it be advisable for me to put, Uaru fernandczyepzi, or some Altum angels (both a couple of my favorite species) in my tank, or spume oft Amazonian water tetras.
To me that I would consider that an exercise in futility, and a bit delusional, when the fish above are readily available to me, and fit perfectly in my water.
Mt tanks average water parameter test below.

 

[Omrit]

Raising the PH seems simple enough, although I have never had to do it myself as I have harder water(although not as hard as you). Lowering PH on the other hand seems far more difficult and not worth doing.

A lot of wild caught black water species do not ship well, do not do well in wholesaler/fish store tanks, and have difficult care requirements(picky eaters ect). On the other hand the rift lake cichlids are some of the sturdiest fish, and can take a lot more stress before having problems. I would be hesitant to order a lot of blackwater species even if I had perfect water for them, I just don't think a lot of them make good captives especially for the average aquarist.

I just wonder if when it comes to many of these species if the PH isn't necessarily what is killing them. I have never seen a bag full of dead rift lake cichlids at the LFS, but I have seen numerous bags of dead tetras arrive from shipments over the years.

 

[duanes]

I don't believe its the pH alone that in itself, acutely kills fish, or causes chronic disease.
I believe it is the bacteria that live in certain pH ranges.
Unlike higher animals, many bacteria have very narrow pH ranges where they thrive, so bacteria that thrive in a pH 7.5 water, are very different than bacteria that thrive in pH 6 water or lower.
So the fish evolved to live in water at pH 6, have no need to build resistance to those bacteria that thrive in a soup (water) of pH 8.

I did some experiments while working as a microbiologist growing bacteria on agars, of different pH's.
I found the bacteria that caused HITH in my water only grew in agar made at a pH of 7.4 and above.
When I tried to grow the same bacteria in agar of 6 or lower, there was little to no growth at all.

If you go through the HITH posts in the disease section, you often find statements like
"my oscar was fine for 2 years, then... this or that malady mysteriously appeared, even though Ididn;t do anything different."
But when water parameters "are" occasionally posted, pH is often above 7.5, and nitrates are also elevated.

This (and my experiments) lead me to the conclusion, it takes some time for the high pH bacteria to become infective on soft water species.
And that it often occurs in the presence of elevated nitrate. Often, just when the fish is supposed to be in its prime.

But the same thing does occur in rift lake species over time, if kept in too soft, low pH water, and in crowded conditions, where nitrate is allowed to rise.
It often manifests in what was for years , mysteriously called the "Malawi Bloat", and commonly blamed on feeding practices.
In the rift lakes where pH is between 8 and 9, these cichlids have had "no" need to evolve resistance to the bacteria that thrive in lower pH, elevated nitrate conditions, aquarists force them to endure.

And I agree, it is often fairly easy to add pH raising minerals.
But not so easy to add acids safely, or acquire RO/DI systems to remove the minerals that create high pH and hardness.
Early on in my cichlid keeping beginnings, I figured out trying to keep many soft water Amazonian species in my liquid rock water was futile, but it was almost a cinch keeping Central Americans, and African rift lake cichlids..

 

[Omrit]

I don't believe its the pH alone that in itself, acutely kills fish, or causes chronic disease.
I believe it is the bacteria that live in certain pH ranges.
Unlike higher animals, many bacteria have very narrow pH ranges where they thrive, so bacteria that thrive in a pH 7.5 water, are very different than bacteria that thrive in pH 6 water or lower.
So the fish evolved to live in water at pH 6, have no need to build resistance to those bacteria that thrive in a soup (water) of pH 8.

I did some experiments while working as a microbiologist growing bacteria on agars, of different pH's.
I found the bacteria that caused HITH in my water only grew in agar made at a pH of 7.4 and above.
When I tried to grow the same bacteria in agar of 6 or lower, there was little to no growth at all.

If you go through the HITH posts in the disease section, you often find statements like
"my oscar was fine for 2 years, then... this or that malady mysteriously appeared, even though Ididn;t do anything different."
But when water parameters "are" occasionally posted, pH is often above 7.5, and nitrates are also elevated.

This (and my experiments) lead me to the conclusion, it takes some time for the high pH bacteria to become infective on soft water species.
And that it often occurs in the presence of elevated nitrate. Often, just when the fish is supposed to be in its prime.

But the same thing does occur in rift lake species over time, if kept in too soft, low pH water, and in crowded conditions, where nitrate is allowed to rise.
It often manifests in what was for years , mysteriously called the "Malawi Bloat", and commonly blamed on feeding practices.
In the rift lakes where pH is between 8 and 9, these cichlids have had "no" need to evolve resistance to the bacteria that thrive in lower pH, elevated nitrate conditions, aquarists force them to endure.

And I agree, it is often fairly easy to add pH raising minerals.
But not so easy to add acids safely, or acquire RO/DI systems to remove the minerals that create high pH and hardness.
Early on in my cichlid keeping beginnings, I figured out trying to keep many soft water Amazonian species in my liquid rock water was futile, but it was almost a cinch keeping Central Americans, and African rift lake cichlids..

I think the PH effecting the bacteria is definitely true, I am not disputing that by any means. I just also think softwater species tend to be far less hardy, so even with the proper water keeping them still might not be easy.

It's like when I first started setting aquariums up for people. Typically the only request they have is "pretty fish" so I test the water and show them their options. The softwater tanks often run into problems meanwhile the rift lake tanks thrive even in the hands of fairly inept aquarist. Central American cichlids tend to be similarly hardy, and are also tolerant of mistakes.

 

[dmyersWv]

Another thing to keep in mind is most fish we are buying are not wild caught. And are many generations of captive breeding. Most breeders I've talked to are not adjusting their ph for any of their fish. My ph runs around 7 to 7.4 and I have no issue breeding African, centeral and south American cichlids.

 

[duanes]

Another thing to keep in mind is most fish we are buying are not wild caught. And are many generations of captive breeding. Most breeders I've talked to are not adjusting their ph for any of their fish. My ph runs around 7 to 7.4 and I have no issue breeding African, centeral and south American cichlids.

When you compare the 100 or more generations of captive breeding, to millions of years of evolution those captive years are a drop in the bucket.

 

[dmyersWv]

I sometimes wonder if with some fish we make them more fragile by keeping parameters perfect. In nature these are not consistent, natural changes as in run off and rainy season will drastically alter ph and temp. Example discus are one of the only fish I have had where wild caught seemed more hardy.

 

[dmyersWv]

I have been moving Green Terrors outside from spring to late fall. Temperature ranges from 60f to 100f high and as low as high 40s. Never adjust the ph allow to change with added water from hose and rain. Only thing I add is some declor when using the hose. Very healthy and alot of breeding. 300 and 150 gallon tubs.

 

[RD.]

When you compare the 100 or more generations of captive breeding, to millions of years of evolution those captive years are a drop in the bucket.

I think I just had a flashback. lol

Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant | MonsterFishKeepers.com



Rant part II?

 

[dmyersWv]

Great link. Awsome info and easy to understand. I recommend reading that thread.