Chloramine in source water with Auto Drip System?

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
Howdy

When i used municipal water i had an injector pump on my drip, which automatically dosed Prime. Its flow-driven, no concerns during power outage. No need for an offgassing reservoir, either, just a bucket or a carboy with diluted prime

Works virtually maintenance free.


HarleyK
Much appreciated 💀🤙… didn’t even know this was an option.
 
This is scary. I’ve been using a drip system for 20+ years now, straight tap water. Never had an issue.
Am I just lucky or is it the small amount of water I’m dripping compared to the overall about of water in the tanks.
“The solution to pollution is dilution”
Hopefully I’m not just getting lucky.
 
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This is scary. I’ve been using a drip system for 20+ years now, straight tap water. Never had an issue.
Am I just lucky or is it the small amount of water I’m dripping compared to the overall about of water in the tanks.
“The solution to pollution is dilution”
Hopefully I’m not just getting lucky.
Still trying to figure this all out…ur comment is half of my mental debate as well and a big one 😂… been pretty religious about testing my tap and my tanks for days/weeks now. Initially i cut my drips in half to see what would happen. “Homeostasis” pretty much stayed the same… so i went to 3/4 drip on some tanks and 100% of my “normal” drips on others which are over 150% fresh water a week and i cant see a difference in anything other than my tap still registers a bit of ammonia on tests as well as my “new” filtered water. My tanks all read zero ammonia which is a big positive. Nitrates range from 5-20ppm pretty much as they always have for the last 12 years dripping.

At this point im not sure what to do. Also not complaining that my tanks are all “good” or as good as they have been. I’ve cut the drips back a bit on a few tanks and my nitrates are still at more than acceptable levels so at the least im saving a bit of water a month now 😂🤷🏻‍♂️. Like ur thinking also, is the tiny amt. of chloramine “lost in the ocean”?… id like to know for sure 😂… but again (knock on wood) things seem fine. Fish have all been eating and acting like they always have here.

Still going to test a few different filter cartridges for the new pre filtration as i can money wise to see if i can improve anything. At this point that may just be for peace of mind from my results so far.
 
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I’m very interested in what you find out with the filters. I agree that not knowing is concerning. 20+ years of consistent water quality can change over night if something happens to the city water. Basically I would be out of the hobby if I had a massive die off. I would be totally crushed.
My “take” on the drip system is use the least amount of water to keep the tank clean. If adding more water doesn’t improve water quality I just don’t do it.
I trickle an amount of water and test in a week. If the water quality is good I lower the flow and test again in a week. Sometimes this can go two weeks or even three weeks between testing. But if the water is good I lower the amount if it’s getting dirty I increase. If I make a big change I test a week later for sure. As the temps increase in the summer I feed the fish more and easily double the trickle flow between summer and winter. Tank temps increase the summer at as high as 84 and the winter they can go down to 72.
I think my risk is less with my system. If there’s a big change to the city water hopefully my lower flow keeps me out of trouble! Crossing fingers and toes lol
 
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This is scary. I’ve been using a drip system for 20+ years now, straight tap water. Never had an issue.
Am I just lucky or is it the small amount of water I’m dripping compared to the overall about of water in the tanks.
“The solution to pollution is dilution”
Hopefully I’m not just getting lucky.
It is exactly how you describe it; chlorine poisoning is an issue of how much % of the untreated water is chlorine, or chloramine, relative to how much total water volume you have in your aquarium. Unfortunately it's a fairly low threshold so a drip system may or may not lead to it depending on what type of treatment your local tap water uses.

More specifically, any amount of free chlorine/chloramine is bad as both chemicals are strong oxidant and will burn the soft tissues on fish (gills predominately) but if it's at a low concentration like 0.001 ppm then it's like scratching your skin. Sure maybe some cells on your skin might get killed and flicked off but functionally nothing has happened as your body would have replaced those cells anyways. However, at relatively high concentration ~.1 - .5 ppm or greater it's extremely likely that your fish's soft tissues will get into contact with chlorine causing damage -> suffocation -> death.

Of course chlorine by itself "gasses" out of a body of water within 24 hours so a drip system using untreated tap water filled with it could arguably cause little to no damage as your reservoir will likely "gas off" naturally before it even hits the main tank. An untreated drip system with chloramine however could cause long term chronic damage as the chemical itself, as duanes duanes stated, is extremely stable in water taking weeks to remove without using a chemical solution to neutralize it.

Finally, let me know if you want a further break down on why free chlorine causes burns.

HTH
 
It is exactly how you describe it; chlorine poisoning is an issue of how much % of the untreated water is chlorine, or chloramine, relative to how much total water volume you have in your aquarium. Unfortunately it's a fairly low threshold so a drip system may or may not lead to it depending on what type of treatment your local tap water uses.

More specifically, any amount of free chlorine/chloramine is bad as both chemicals are strong oxidant and will burn the soft tissues on fish (gills predominately) but if it's at a low concentration like 0.001 ppm then it's like scratching your skin. Sure maybe some cells on your skin might get killed and flicked off but functionally nothing has happened as your body would have replaced those cells anyways. However, at relatively high concentration ~.1 - .5 ppm or greater it's extremely likely that your fish's soft tissues will get into contact with chlorine causing damage -> suffocation -> death.

Of course chlorine by itself "gasses" out of a body of water within 24 hours so a drip system using untreated tap water filled with it could arguably cause little to no damage as your reservoir will likely "gas off" naturally before it even hits the main tank. An untreated drip system with chloramine however could cause long term chronic damage as the chemical itself, as duanes duanes stated, is extremely stable in water taking weeks to remove without using a chemical solution to neutralize it.

Finally, let me know if you want a further break down on why free chlorine causes burns.

HTH
Thanks for the info, it’s something to think about.
 
It is exactly how you describe it; chlorine poisoning is an issue of how much % of the untreated water is chlorine, or chloramine, relative to how much total water volume you have in your aquarium. Unfortunately it's a fairly low threshold so a drip system may or may not lead to it depending on what type of treatment your local tap water uses.

More specifically, any amount of free chlorine/chloramine is bad as both chemicals are strong oxidant and will burn the soft tissues on fish (gills predominately) but if it's at a low concentration like 0.001 ppm then it's like scratching your skin. Sure maybe some cells on your skin might get killed and flicked off but functionally nothing has happened as your body would have replaced those cells anyways. However, at relatively high concentration ~.1 - .5 ppm or greater it's extremely likely that your fish's soft tissues will get into contact with chlorine causing damage -> suffocation -> death.

Of course chlorine by itself "gasses" out of a body of water within 24 hours so a drip system using untreated tap water filled with it could arguably cause little to no damage as your reservoir will likely "gas off" naturally before it even hits the main tank. An untreated drip system with chloramine however could cause long term chronic damage as the chemical itself, as duanes duanes stated, is extremely stable in water taking weeks to remove without using a chemical solution to neutralize it.

Finally, let me know if you want a further break down on why free chlorine causes burns.

HTH

Out of tap im testing .5 ppm ammonia… im dripping as much as 200% per week and not registering any ammonia in tank. Im aware its in there somewhere but are my filters breaking it down at all since theres no evidence on a test?

If i really push the limits with the tap water drip i can get my nitrates to go up instead of down but i keep them at 5-20ppm at most. Im not opposed to using safe/prime with a chemical injector but what am i treating/removing if its not enough to register in tank?
 
Out of tap im testing .5 ppm ammonia… im dripping as much as 200% per week and not registering any ammonia in tank. Im aware its in there somewhere but are my filters breaking it down at all since theres no evidence on a test?

If i really push the limits with the tap water drip i can get my nitrates to go up instead of down but i keep them at 5-20ppm at most. Im not opposed to using safe/prime with a chemical injector but what am i treating/removing if its not enough to register in tank?
This is going to get a bit technical but bare with me.

First, ppm is a unit of measure; specifically it is used to represent a concentration of something (typically a soluble chemical) within a solution usually at the rate of
1 milligram per kilogram (mg/kg) or 1 milligram per liter (mg/L) (this is specifically when working with water-based solutions). This is important since you're trying to find out if the .5 ppm ammonia you are reading from your tap is actually being processed. We know the nitrogen cycle is ammonia -> nitrite (NO2-) -> nitrate (NO3-).

Notice that ammonia was not given a scientific notation as this is going to depend on the type of tests you have available to you. Assuming you are using a standard liquid test, like API Master Freshwater Test Kit, you're probably testing for total ions which tests for Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN) which is ionized ammonia (NH3) and unionized ammonia (NH4+) aka ammonium while considering all atomic weights. If you have access to a spectrophotometer or to a lab you will definitely be testing for TAN but typically the test results are inline within the Nitrate-Nitrogen format (NH3-N for TAN or NH3-N and NH4+-N for ammonia and ammonium respectively) which tests only for the Nitrogen and ignores the other elements. This is important as you get two different numbers as an end result.

To demonstrate this we need to get the molar mass for nitrogen and oxygen (look at a periodic table/use google):
N = 14.01 g/mol
H = 1.008 g/mol
O = 16.00 g/mol

which means with an API Master Freshwater Test Kit you will get NH3 = (14.01) + (1.008 × 3) = 14.01 + 3.024 = 17.034 g/mol
but with spectrophotometers you will typically read NH3-N = 14.01 g/mol since you only consider the nitrogen.
In both case NO3- = (14.01) + (16 × 3) = 14.01 + 48 = 62.01 g/mol

Finally, since this process is simply a conversion of nitrogen into different forms we can get the conversion factor through division:
NO3-/NH3 = 62.01/17.034 = 3.64036632617 ~ 3.64
NO3-/NH3-N = 62.01/14.01 = 4.426124197 ~ 4.43

Now we can just multiple this factor to the ammonia to get how much nitrates we should expect to see:
Total Ion testing: 0.5 * 3.64 = 1.82 ppm
Only Nitrogen testing: 0.5 * 4.43 = 2.215 ~ 2.22 ppm

Of course while mathematically accurate this is assuming a few things:
1) No new nitrogen is added into the system
2) None of the nitrogen is used while the conversion is occuring

This of course is extremely difficult to test in a living, breathing aquarium as fish naturally release trace amount of ammonia, various microorganisms + to an extent your fish will use the nitrate in the water as a nitrogen source, and fish food will have a variance in it's nitrogen/protein content. Still, you should see at the absolute minimum an increase between the ranges of 1.82-2.22 +- probably ~0.5 ppm of nirates.

tl;dr you should expect to see roughly about ~1.82-2.22 ppm of nitrates from .5 ppm of ammonia. Calculating the rate at which you will see this increase is an entirely separate post.

edit: Forgot to answer a key portion of you post. You are likely treating chloramine (NH2Cl) if you are reading ammonia after treating your tap water. This is because chloramine is simply free chlorine (hypochlorous acid HOCl) bound to ammonia to stabilize it in water.

HTH
 
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