Cichlid Line Bred vs. Hybrid
- Thread starter Aquamojo
- Start date
Electric Blue Jack Dempseys were not created via line breeding... they were discovered and then line bred (if you accept the story of the guy who introduced them to the world)... those who do not accept that story generally assume they are hybrids... although there is some level of scientific research that suggests they are not hybrids...
I don't mean to derail this conversation but including Blue Dempseys in your list of line bred references may mislead people into not understanding what is meant by line bred fish... or will mislead people to misunderstand what a Blue Dempsey is...
Line breeding is the way to 'refine' what nature offers us... hybridizing is a way of creating something new... This is how I view the difference which makes me embrace line breeding but reject hybridization... in my own tanks at least...
I don't mean to derail this conversation but including Blue Dempseys in your list of line bred references may mislead people into not understanding what is meant by line bred fish... or will mislead people to misunderstand what a Blue Dempsey is...
Line breeding is the way to 'refine' what nature offers us... hybridizing is a way of creating something new... This is how I view the difference which makes me embrace line breeding but reject hybridization... in my own tanks at least...
...so if someone "discovered" a fish that has a truncated body or missing tail (genetic mutations) and desired to create an aquarium strain of fish with these characteristics (valued by some)...would that fish be OK because it's not technically a hybrid?
In my perspective, you can't differentiate between line bred fish that have been selectively bred to create something that is different than what is found in nature (e.g. EBJD)...and mixing closely related species to create something that is different than what is found in nature (e.g. a flowerhorn).
Where does "refinement" end...and "creating something new" begin? One can certainly create something far just as different than wild-type through selective breeding as one could through hybridization of closely related species.
I don't pass judgement as to the "rightness" or "wrongness" of either (line bred or hybrids) because they were developed - on purpose - to be different than what is found in nature.
I do pass judement on people are irresponsible in keeping, breeding, or distributing line bred, hybrids, or wild-type fish.
In my perspective, you can't differentiate between line bred fish that have been selectively bred to create something that is different than what is found in nature (e.g. EBJD)...and mixing closely related species to create something that is different than what is found in nature (e.g. a flowerhorn).
Where does "refinement" end...and "creating something new" begin? One can certainly create something far just as different than wild-type through selective breeding as one could through hybridization of closely related species.
I don't pass judgement as to the "rightness" or "wrongness" of either (line bred or hybrids) because they were developed - on purpose - to be different than what is found in nature.
I do pass judement on people are irresponsible in keeping, breeding, or distributing line bred, hybrids, or wild-type fish.
nc_nutcase;2427458; said:
The only reason I posted was to discourage Mojo and others from using Blue Dempseys as a line bred example, since they are not an example of line bred fish
the above post completely ignored that point and continued to use Blue Dempseys as an example of line bred fish
which they are not
they are a color mutation
In response to the above post if I discovered a deformed fish I wouldnt bred it because its deformed
In response to the above post if I discovered a deformed fish I wouldnt bred it because its deformed
Hybridization thats my answer
Although there are a couple examples where this is sort of true its a long stretch from reality
nc_nutcase;2427545; said:
Show me something that says they are not line bred. They are absolutley line bred to achieve that coloration. There are NO EBJD in the wild.
Aquamojo;2424669; said:
I would say yes. There is a definate difference. Hybrids are often created by placing two fish together that would not encounter each other in the wild and producing offspring. Line breeding is selective breeding of the same type of fish; be it through inbreeding or another way.
Aquamojo;2427563; said:
When we start with a wild type fish... then begin line breeding them... they slowly change from the wild type to the line bred type... it's a process of evolution.
Blue Dempseys were not made this way. There are no partial Blue Dempseys or sort of Blue Dempseys or normal looking Dempseys that are becoming Blue Dempseys...
Blue Dempseys, like Albinos, are a color mutation. Color mutations are caused by mutated genes or chemicals in the genes that determine the color of the fish.
Line breeding is a process of evolution... color mutations either are or are not...
I agree neither is the normal wild type appearance... but not everything fits in one category or the other... there are other categories...
I don't know if this is "showing you something" but it is quite logical. If you do not agree please show me something that suggests someone can start with wild type Dempseys without the recessive Blue gene and end up with Blue Dempseys...
"The only reason I posted was to discourage Mojo and others from using Blue Dempseys as a line bred example, since they are not an example of line bred fis
they are a color mutation
"
In order to create EBJD you need to selectively breed fish with this trait (or gene) with other fish with this trait or gene...which is very different from what happens in nature. If nature valued EBJD characteristics, then EBJD would outcompete the "natural" form in the wild...which isn't the case.
I think that EBJD are pretty fish. A lot of people do. But so are flowerhorns and other man-made varieties.
"In response to the above post if I discovered a deformed fish I wouldnt bred it because its deformed "
How is deformed different than differently colored, long-finned, bigger, taller, albino, etc.?
"Although there are a couple examples where this is sort of true its a long stretch from reality "
How about 99.9% of all of the convicts and red devils in the hobby. They're technically hybrids.
In order to create EBJD you need to selectively breed fish with this trait (or gene) with other fish with this trait or gene...which is very different from what happens in nature. If nature valued EBJD characteristics, then EBJD would outcompete the "natural" form in the wild...which isn't the case.
I think that EBJD are pretty fish. A lot of people do. But so are flowerhorns and other man-made varieties.
"In response to the above post if I discovered a deformed fish I wouldnt bred it because its deformed "
How is deformed different than differently colored, long-finned, bigger, taller, albino, etc.?
"Although there are a couple examples where this is sort of true its a long stretch from reality "
How about 99.9% of all of the convicts and red devils in the hobby. They're technically hybrids.
nc_nutcase;2427596; said:
I'm sorry, but you are wrong on so many levels.
If you believe the history of EBJD they originated with regular Octofasciatum...mutated fry were singled out and LINE BRED for multiple generations to get the blue color morph. Here's the article...fourth paragraph.
http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/tfhblue.htm
If you have to breed them a specific way to get the end result...it's line breeding.
Personally I think they are a hybrid.
Exactly, which is why I said that Blue Dempseys have been line bred... but they are not 'created' via line breeding. I suggest 'color mutations' and 'line bred' fish are two different categories.
Color mutations are something that takes place in nature, naturally... oddly, but naturally.
Line bred fish are something that we allowed to evolve from a pure species in our aquariums. By changing the enviornment, we allow differnt qualities to thrive. By selecting which fish have a chance to breed we alter what characteristics are passed on.
Blue Dempseys weren't caused by any kind of evolution based on environment (controlled or natural). They are a genetic quirk that 'just happens'. I'm sure there are biological/evolutionary reasons for this to happen, but they are beyond human's current understanding (we don't know why abinos happen, but we know that they happen and even how they happen, but not why).
This is why I put "line bred' fish and 'color mutation' fish in two seperate categories...
My statement was in response when you asked us to consider a truncated body or missing tail fish(genetic mutations)... which I summarized as a deformed fish... Color mutations do qualify as genetic mutations, but I was responding more toward the physical deformities you mentioned...
We can line breed long finned fish by letting the fish with the longest fins breed. We can take completely normal fish and 'bring out' qualities we want...
Colr mutations, such as Blue Dempseys or any Albino, cannot be 'brought out' of normal fish UNLESS those "normal fish" have the recessive gene for the desired trait. But if it has the recesive trait then I would suggest it is not a "normal fish".
