Well for one a sump works off a gravity feed. Add backpressure and it wont flow right. A lot of air goes both down and up your intake. As the water evaporates, the level in the sump lowers. Theres the first 3 reasons why it wouldnt work right. Add in how you are going to completely seal it and such and it doesnt make sence at all. Ever heard of KISS? People have been running tanks that size and much bigger for a long time and never once have I heard of anything like this working. Perhaps everyone has done it wrong and you have the secret, or you might want to see some large tanks, see how they are filtered and go with a similar route. If you are set on closed loop then buy a pressure filter, dont try to make a gravity filter fit that bill. What if you build this whole thing and it doesnt work? Now u have a wasted sump, extra holes in your tank u cant use and several hundred gallons of water on the floor just to try something different? Im all for ingenuity and creation but what you are trying reminds me of trying to make a square peg fit a round hole
Closed Loop Sump?
- Thread starter TheSinisterSOB
- Start date
Well for one a sump works off a gravity feed. Add backpressure and it wont flow right. A lot of air goes both down and up your intake. As the water evaporates, the level in the sump lowers. Theres the first 3 reasons why it wouldnt work right. Add in how you are going to completely seal it and such and it doesnt make sence at all. Ever heard of KISS? People have been running tanks that size and much bigger for a long time and never once have I heard of anything like this working. Perhaps everyone has done it wrong and you have the secret, or you might want to see some large tanks, see how they are filtered and go with a similar route. If you are set on closed loop then buy a pressure filter, dont try to make a gravity filter fit that bill. What if you build this whole thing and it doesnt work? Now u have a wasted sump, extra holes in your tank u cant use and several hundred gallons of water on the floor just to try something different? Im all for ingenuity and creation but what you are trying reminds me of trying to make a square peg fit a round hole
If you were going bare floor, I would suggest putting PVC just off the floor...works really great for waste removal and water changes. We have two "poop sucker" pipes in our 300 gallon tank. We drain the tank by opening a valve. The water gravity flows out the tank. I changed out 150 gallons yesterday--would have done more, but the fish are so big they were on their sides. Here's an old post on our mechanical system. Tank has been running over 8 years with no debris to vacuum.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...n-Pic-Thread&p=1211087&viewfull=1#post1211087
The spa filters have worked so well, that I wouldn't consider not having them. We are going with six poop suckers on the big tank with six larger spa filters. I had eleven extra holes drilled in the top of the new tank to accommodate our closed loop mechanical and biological filtration systems. I personally am not a fan of bulkheads low in the tank and prefer pipes coming from the top of the tank.
It seems that most sumps are syphon fed via some type of overflow system. Perhaps you could incorporate a "poop sucker" uptake close to the floor of the tank, with a couple of holes near the top of the uptake pipe for syphon break at a pre-determined water level. When the water level drops, the syphoning action stops at the drilled holes. This still would not be a closed loop system though. For closed loop, the water is pumped out and pumped back into the main tank. And while this might work for removing debris from the bottom, when it came to removing water for water changes, you would be limited to the predetermined low water level. The tank could be plumbed so that you can turn a valve and drain water, but why not have some extreme mechanical filtration also?
I've seen spa filters mostly used as prefilters on large reef systems. The guy I contacted when we were setting up our 300 g tank sets up and maintains reef systems. That's how we got ours. While they are only mechanical, they do an excellent job.
We are using two RTL-25s on our current system, but will use RTS-100s on our bigger system.
http://www.spapartsshop.com/R172505.aspx
Here's a fabulous reef build. You can see the RTL-like filter that is being used.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16850559&postcount=809
There is only one other MFK member that I know of who uses RTL-like filters. Oftalmos uses two of them on his 765 gallon tank.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...-My-765-gal-tank-Part-1&highlight=Mexico+City
These are the 8 uptake pipes and three return pipes going in the new tank. Even the sump tank will have a vertical pipe drawing water from the bottom of the tank and returning the water to the main tank. The plumbing will be the only "decoration" in our undecorated tank.
Afaik there is at least one way to do this.
You can drain from the bottom of the tank if the piping (from the bottom) makes an inverted U up (after exiting the tank and before going to the sump) such that at the top of the inverted U the water level is just below the level you are willing to drain from the tank (into the sump) during a power outage. Place a sufficiently large hole at the top of the inverted U (it must be large enough the break a siphon if the pump is turned off...and the hole must never be accidentally plugged.)
When power goes out, the tank will continue to drain out of the bottom and up and then down the inverted U until the tank level reaches approximately the level of the inverted U, whereupon air will enter the tube and break the siphon.
In effect you are re-creating the traditional overflow system by going out of the bottom and then up to the point where a "normal" overflow would exit the tank. This would probably require a lot of extra piping, some support structures and would almost certainly be a lot slower than a similarly sized overflow.
You can drain from the bottom of the tank if the piping (from the bottom) makes an inverted U up (after exiting the tank and before going to the sump) such that at the top of the inverted U the water level is just below the level you are willing to drain from the tank (into the sump) during a power outage. Place a sufficiently large hole at the top of the inverted U (it must be large enough the break a siphon if the pump is turned off...and the hole must never be accidentally plugged.)
When power goes out, the tank will continue to drain out of the bottom and up and then down the inverted U until the tank level reaches approximately the level of the inverted U, whereupon air will enter the tube and break the siphon.
In effect you are re-creating the traditional overflow system by going out of the bottom and then up to the point where a "normal" overflow would exit the tank. This would probably require a lot of extra piping, some support structures and would almost certainly be a lot slower than a similarly sized overflow.
Thanks for your opinion, however I wasn't aware that I had ever stated anybody was ever wrong or had I ever said I had any secrets. Just the opposite actually. My most complicated filtration system is an FX5, which is why I came asking questions in a DIY section. I believe if you had read the thread I was looking for anybody who had ever done this, and the idea of having a bulkhead so low was flawed because of the structural integrity of the side wall was called into question since the bulkhead might have trouble holding back 700g of water. Again, thanks for your opinion.
If you were going bare floor, I would suggest putting PVC just off the floor...works really great for waste removal and water changes. We have two "poop sucker" pipes in our 300 gallon tank. We drain the tank by opening a valve. The water gravity flows out the tank. I changed out 150 gallons yesterday--would have done more, but the fish are so big they were on their sides. Here's an old post on our mechanical system. Tank has been running over 8 years with no debris to vacuum.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...n-Pic-Thread&p=1211087&viewfull=1#post1211087
The spa filters have worked so well, that I wouldn't consider not having them. We are going with six poop suckers on the big tank with six larger spa filters. I had eleven extra holes drilled in the top of the new tank to accommodate our closed loop mechanical and biological filtration systems. I personally am not a fan of bulkheads low in the tank and prefer pipes coming from the top of the tank.
It seems that most sumps are syphon fed via some type of overflow system. Perhaps you could incorporate a "poop sucker" uptake close to the floor of the tank, with a couple of holes near the top of the uptake pipe for syphon break at a pre-determined water level. When the water level drops, the syphoning action stops at the drilled holes. This still would not be a closed loop system though. For closed loop, the water is pumped out and pumped back into the main tank. And while this might work for removing debris from the bottom, when it came to removing water for water changes, you would be limited to the predetermined low water level. The tank could be plumbed so that you can turn a valve and drain water, but why not have some extreme mechanical filtration also?
I've seen spa filters mostly used as prefilters on large reef systems. The guy I contacted when we were setting up our 300 g tank sets up and maintains reef systems. That's how we got ours. While they are only mechanical, they do an excellent job.
We are using two RTL-25s on our current system, but will use RTS-100s on our bigger system.
http://www.spapartsshop.com/R172505.aspx
Here's a fabulous reef build. You can see the RTL-like filter that is being used.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16850559&postcount=809
There is only one other MFK member that I know of who uses RTL-like filters. Oftalmos uses two of them on his 765 gallon tank.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...-My-765-gal-tank-Part-1&highlight=Mexico+City
These are the 8 uptake pipes and three return pipes going in the new tank. Even the sump tank will have a vertical pipe drawing water from the bottom of the tank and returning the water to the main tank. The plumbing will be the only "decoration" in our undecorated tank.
Simply amazing, Pacu Mom! Thank you very much for all of that info. All of this reading will definitely keep me up at night.
That's a good idea, Drstrangelove. I do have a similar system with my 125g, but its just a simple pvc pipe that I bent and drilled to help with WC's. I drilled a hole in the pvc to where I wanted the WC to stop, and added an attachment to the end of the pvc that hangs on the outside of the tank. It works great since I don't have to sit and watch the entire time. Not good for removing waste, but good for simple WC's.
