Cloudy Eyes, please help
- Thread starter festaedan
- Start date
Thanks for all the input guys
I did an 80% water change and put in a 75% dose of salt. Unfortunately the situation has gotten worse. She is getting super skinny (hip bones arent showing though) but she has a small hole in her head. Im really worried
Im going to test the water right when im done typing
She lives with a male marble, who i have yet to see try to breed with her but that doesnt mean he hasnt, a female hybrid who bites her every now and then but just around the disk, the leo always bites her back so i dont think it hurts her too bad. The three rays live with 1 6" male cichlasoma dimerus, 4 6-7" H.psittacus, 1 4" geo sp. red head tapajos (the male ate the other 5), 1 7" crenicichla sveni, a pair of cichlasoma amazonarum, and a 14" silver
The tank is a 6x3' 300 gallon wide and is filtered by a 50 +/- gallon sump, 2 fx6s, and a UV sterilizer
I'll post up the params once the tests come out. I only have 1 tube so it might take a bit
Thanks for all the help guys
I found the problem, there is a tiny bit of ammonia
Nitrate - 5 ppm Nitrite - 0.5 ppm Amonia - 0.5 ppm
I unfortunately cant do a water change until Saturday, do y'all think they'll be fine if I dont feed them and keep the lights off for the 2 days before I can clean out the tank?
Thanks
Here are the pics of the little dent in her head
Nitrate - 5 ppm Nitrite - 0.5 ppm Amonia - 0.5 ppm
I unfortunately cant do a water change until Saturday, do y'all think they'll be fine if I dont feed them and keep the lights off for the 2 days before I can clean out the tank?
Thanks
Here are the pics of the little dent in her head
Ya with 80% water change I wouldn't doubt you have ammonia. For sick rays less more frequently is the golden ticket, 5-10% twice a day or 10-20% once a day. Maybe your bioload was particularly heavy for a while, I'm no expert but your tank is decently heavily stocked. I think treating less is more here too, lights off, half dose of salt, live foods to insight appetite, but give it time. I would 100% separate during this period as well. Think carefully before meds. Tons of similar threads lately unfortunately.
How would the water change add ammonia? I know this is probably a stupid question but ever since I started keeping fish I always heard "if you have excess ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, do a big water change".
I am by no means an expert on this my friend, but here is my take on the circumstance.
I personally believe your tank is a bit stocked, perhaps in relation to a smaller footprint housing fish with such a high bioload. Without knowing more about what houses bio in your tank I am going to guess you were on the verge of enough -> not enough bacteria to prevent small ammonia spikes already. Personally I think what started this business is you have one particular ray more sensitive to ammonia spikes, even small spikes such as due to heavier feeding, than others. All it takes is a couple of these spikes for a sensitive ray to become stressed, go off of food, and from there it is a slippery slope and a bit of an uphill battle in the sense that you have to do more to correct it than what little issue caused it.
I know water does not have a lot of properties that hold this beneficial bacteria, but there is definitely some of that bacteria in there. Picture this, you have a small bio problem, and what you then do is take out a chunk more of the bio by doing the 80% change. Before you adequately treat the tank (that is the prime/conditioner was added after the fact, plus it takes some time to disperse around the tank), some of the chlorine in your water likely killed a bit more of the beneficial bacteria. This normally is completely negligible, but if you indeed have a small bio issue this could definitely compound into a mini cycle.
So a bit of math here: previously stressed out ray + large change in water environment (one way or the other, good or bad, it was a change) adding to stress + now you have ammonia readings. Not going to finish the equation yet because we don't have all the variables. My point is you have a stressed ray, and other fish that are not as stressed. At this point your job is to do as much as you can to stop the stress of the ray, and I feel like big water changes aren't the ticket, that small and more frequent ones are. Pure speculation here, maybe you don't have a bio issue to begin with, but ask yourself, if you replaced 100% of the water, which is close to what you did, would you expect your bio filtration to IMMEDIATELY treat all the water? Gotta remember the bio loads on these fish are massive, and I bet over the years of you keeping them the feedings have not gotten smaller. One way or another you have to pinpoint the source of the ammonia, and you can't do that accurately right after a large change. Mini cycles are not fatal to rays, long periods of sulking and refusing to eat can be.
This is just my speculation here man, take it with a grain of salt, I am not a doctor, and I am by no means considered an expert at the nitrogen cycle or fish keeping. You could also tell me you have way more than enough bio media and that I should go fly a kite, which could be true, but somehow if your test kit is accurate you are getting an ammonia reading.
Clean those fx6's if you haven't, make sure there isn't rotting food somewhere in your mechanical or in your piping. I personally would follow my above suggestions, but what works for one person doesn't work for others. Has your pH been steady as well? What is your normal reading? A large water change can result in a pH swing as well if you don't have a regular drip or a buffer. Some rays are just more sensitive than others man, and as we have learned in others threads, sometimes it is best not to overdo anything, just go into stress reduction mode and leave it alone for a while. Keep an eye on parameters and keep us posted. Good luck.
I personally believe your tank is a bit stocked, perhaps in relation to a smaller footprint housing fish with such a high bioload. Without knowing more about what houses bio in your tank I am going to guess you were on the verge of enough -> not enough bacteria to prevent small ammonia spikes already. Personally I think what started this business is you have one particular ray more sensitive to ammonia spikes, even small spikes such as due to heavier feeding, than others. All it takes is a couple of these spikes for a sensitive ray to become stressed, go off of food, and from there it is a slippery slope and a bit of an uphill battle in the sense that you have to do more to correct it than what little issue caused it.
I know water does not have a lot of properties that hold this beneficial bacteria, but there is definitely some of that bacteria in there. Picture this, you have a small bio problem, and what you then do is take out a chunk more of the bio by doing the 80% change. Before you adequately treat the tank (that is the prime/conditioner was added after the fact, plus it takes some time to disperse around the tank), some of the chlorine in your water likely killed a bit more of the beneficial bacteria. This normally is completely negligible, but if you indeed have a small bio issue this could definitely compound into a mini cycle.
So a bit of math here: previously stressed out ray + large change in water environment (one way or the other, good or bad, it was a change) adding to stress + now you have ammonia readings. Not going to finish the equation yet because we don't have all the variables. My point is you have a stressed ray, and other fish that are not as stressed. At this point your job is to do as much as you can to stop the stress of the ray, and I feel like big water changes aren't the ticket, that small and more frequent ones are. Pure speculation here, maybe you don't have a bio issue to begin with, but ask yourself, if you replaced 100% of the water, which is close to what you did, would you expect your bio filtration to IMMEDIATELY treat all the water? Gotta remember the bio loads on these fish are massive, and I bet over the years of you keeping them the feedings have not gotten smaller. One way or another you have to pinpoint the source of the ammonia, and you can't do that accurately right after a large change. Mini cycles are not fatal to rays, long periods of sulking and refusing to eat can be.
This is just my speculation here man, take it with a grain of salt, I am not a doctor, and I am by no means considered an expert at the nitrogen cycle or fish keeping. You could also tell me you have way more than enough bio media and that I should go fly a kite, which could be true, but somehow if your test kit is accurate you are getting an ammonia reading.
Clean those fx6's if you haven't, make sure there isn't rotting food somewhere in your mechanical or in your piping. I personally would follow my above suggestions, but what works for one person doesn't work for others. Has your pH been steady as well? What is your normal reading? A large water change can result in a pH swing as well if you don't have a regular drip or a buffer. Some rays are just more sensitive than others man, and as we have learned in others threads, sometimes it is best not to overdo anything, just go into stress reduction mode and leave it alone for a while. Keep an eye on parameters and keep us posted. Good luck.
Thanks for this, really helped
Honestly, when I look at the tank it doesnt look super stocked, most of the fish are 6" or less. This weekend I will clean out the sponges but leave the bio media assuming its having a miny cycle. Do you think adding a little smart start (beneficial bacteria in a bottle) would help speed up the process so the leo can recover a bit faster?
The leo was the most recent addition to the tank (added her december 4th) and she came from a very established system. The tank she's in now has only been set up for about 9 months.
Thanks
You're welcome, may not be right but discussion at least may lead us in the right direction. I didn't realize your rays were only 6", you do have a fair bit of room in there and it doesn't seem as heavy as a bioload as I initially thought. So other than not having enough bio media, the ammonia reading may only be a one off since that 80% change, and maybe initial problem wasn't ammonia. You confident your test kit is right, as in do you have another tank to compare it to? How old is it? Don't go overboard on cleaning your sponges if you need bio media, just lightly with tank water to get rid of detritus and potential sources of decay that may be causing ammonia. Whatever maintenance you do, first thing you need to keep at the front of your mind is doing things in a way to reduce the stress of the ray.
I personally don't like to add anything into my tank unless I have to and am sure what I am adding will address the issue. Learned that the hard way once. I guess if you can be certain you are continuing to have ammonia spikes that it wouldn't hurt and I imagine BB in a bottle won't cause a great deal more stress like medication would. Just speculating, I would hold off unless you are confident a lack of bio is contributing to the issue. Maybe a bit of salt but definitely not a full dose, maybe quarter dose. Stress could be as simple as being picked on or being the last to be able to get food. Dents in foreheads don't happen overnight, and truth be told it is a bad sign (again, learned the hard way).
What are your fx6's filled with? Give us some more details about your substrate, your sump setup, and anything else that may hold bio bacteria so we can try to eliminate that as an issue before we go too far down that path unnecessarily. Specific quantities of media will help, and I guess post a list of fish and their sizes, as well as your feeding details. If ammonia is the issue you would think you would see signs elsewhere and it certainly wouldn't be from one spike. Post more test results. I know it seems like I am doing a complete 180 but I didn't realize your fish were so small, I think 2 properly filled fx6's will be able to keep up with most that stock if truly biggest fish is 6", so problem with ammonia may be the media itself or could be a one off, speaking of which let us know your turnover as well.
I personally don't like to add anything into my tank unless I have to and am sure what I am adding will address the issue. Learned that the hard way once. I guess if you can be certain you are continuing to have ammonia spikes that it wouldn't hurt and I imagine BB in a bottle won't cause a great deal more stress like medication would. Just speculating, I would hold off unless you are confident a lack of bio is contributing to the issue. Maybe a bit of salt but definitely not a full dose, maybe quarter dose. Stress could be as simple as being picked on or being the last to be able to get food. Dents in foreheads don't happen overnight, and truth be told it is a bad sign (again, learned the hard way).
What are your fx6's filled with? Give us some more details about your substrate, your sump setup, and anything else that may hold bio bacteria so we can try to eliminate that as an issue before we go too far down that path unnecessarily. Specific quantities of media will help, and I guess post a list of fish and their sizes, as well as your feeding details. If ammonia is the issue you would think you would see signs elsewhere and it certainly wouldn't be from one spike. Post more test results. I know it seems like I am doing a complete 180 but I didn't realize your fish were so small, I think 2 properly filled fx6's will be able to keep up with most that stock if truly biggest fish is 6", so problem with ammonia may be the media itself or could be a one off, speaking of which let us know your turnover as well.
