Clout

[viejafish]

Toxicity also depends on the exposure time. It's not like you submerge your your hand into the medicated water all day long, or take a bath to cover your whole body skin, so the exposure time and area of contact are tiny.

Whenever medication threads comes up, there is always hyper against using toxic chemicals. All medications are toxic. It is supposed to be toxic to the pathogens, but not to the host, and that's how medication works.

There were similar threads on ick treatment. A lot of people were hyper against using malachite green because it is toxic, but it is exactly its toxicity to make MG 100 times more effective than mild salt and temperature treatment.

 

[Armand]

Toxicity also depends on the exposure time. It's not like you submerge your your hand into the medicated water all day long, or take a bath to cover your whole body skin, so the exposure time and area of contact are tiny.

Whenever medication threads comes up, there is always hyper against using toxic chemicals. All medications are toxic. It is supposed to be toxic to the pathogens, but not to the host, and that's how medication works.

There were similar threads on ick treatment. A lot of people were hyper against using malachite green because it is toxic, but it is exactly its toxicity to make MG 100 times more effective than mild salt and temperature treatment.

Dude, forgive my insistence but it is not like "All the medications are toxic" The fact of the matter is that Tricholrfon is classified as an INSECTICIDE.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/pyrethrins-ziram/trichlorfon-ext.html

This fact makes it more dangerous.

 

[deuxe]

Well it worked, theyre back to normal


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[RD.]

Not that I want to get between you two gents, but for the record some substances that are classified as insecticides, are also used in human food for other purposes. Simply being classified as an insecticide does not mean that any/all amounts of the substance become lethal/toxic to a fish.


Having said that, the vast majority of fish that hobbyists on MFK keep in captivity, such as the OP's fish, EBJD, have absolutely no data to support the safety of any of these medications, at any dosage rate. These medications generally do not take into account the age, size, or weight, of the fish either. Certainly many of these aquatic marketed medications work, and are better than watching a fish suffer, and then die - but that sure as hell doesn't mean that any of them are 100% "safe", either, at any dosage rate. And this is coming from an old fart who used to watch his elders clean auto oil and grease off their hands with gasoline, and did the same on a number of occasions. We didn't soak our hands all day in it either, but just the same I'm guessing that even at low period exposure rates that wasn't overly healthy.

Personally I'm one of those who would prefer to stay on the hyper side of the equation, than expose my fish and the environment with chemicals. Even an old dog can learn new tricks.

I haven't had the need to use Clout in a lot of years, but if it was a last resort sort of thing I would have done the same as the OP. But that's a far cry from considering it safe.


Glad to hear that the treatment worked out for you, deuxe.

 

[deuxe]

True, cell phone radiation is toxic to humans too but its low dosages which barely impact us. Following guidelines and advice for med administration which is toxic is much better than watching my fish suffer. Its like giving a cancer patient chemo which is extremely dangerous to help a patient or not give it to them and watch them continue to waste away. Like i said its a last resort as to why i treated. It is not like i will be using this in every treatment. Too much exposure to one thing will create resistance which bacteria or parasites will mutate and overcome.


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[viejafish]

Let's get the fact. Health scientists have not found one evidence that phone radiation can cause illness. But it is not the same as saying that they have found evidence that phone radiation is harmless. It is simply not possible to prove the negative.

Fish medication is not human medication. So there is no expectation that many have been tested thoroughly on fish based on species, size and age. The recommended dosage is simply educated guessing based on limited data but on the conservative side, meaning that the recommended dosage is far below the toxicity level. I am able to say that because I have used a few medication including clout and malachite green at double the recommended dosage on desperately sick fish, and still had not observed toxicity effect.

Avoiding, delaying or under dosage of medication can cause more harm than over dosage. Steve Job regret that he didn't seek aggressive chemo treatment until it was too late as he placed too much faith on alternative medicine in the believe that they are non-toxic alternatives.

 

[deuxe]

Let's get the fact. Health scientists have not found one evidence that phone radiation can cause illness. But it is not the same as saying that they have found evidence that phone radiation is harmless. It is simply not possible to prove the negative.

Fish medication is not human medication. So there is no expectation that many have been tested thoroughly on fish based on species, size and age. The recommended dosage is simply educated guessing based on limited data but on the conservative side, meaning that the recommended dosage is far below the toxicity level. I am able to say that because I have used a few medication including clout and malachite green at double the recommended dosage on desperately sick fish, and still had not observed toxicity effect.

Avoiding, delaying or under dosage of medication can cause more harm than over dosage. Steve Job regret that he didn't seek aggressive chemo treatment until it was too late as he placed too much faith on alternative medicine in the believe that they are non-toxic alternatives.

Im not disagreeing, but people are making opinion based post against the thread as if clout was used as a cure although its toxicity. I simply stated that it was a last resort and this was between medication and breaks and seeing no improvement. Now i see improvement after using it and i wont be using it again due to other medications i have at hand.


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[RD.]

The recommended dosage is simply educated guessing based on limited data but on the conservative side, meaning that the recommended dosage is far below the toxicity level. I am able to say that because I have used a few medication including clout and malachite green at double the recommended dosage on desperately sick fish, and still had not observed toxicity effect.

At this point I'm not sure why I am even bothering, but allow me to explain why you are incorrect.

The fact that one uses a double dose of Clout, MG, or whatever, and some fish survive, does not equate to those drugs (at any dosage rate) being safe in the short term, or long term, for all fish. To believe that one would have to also believe that the LC50 value (the individual dose required to kill 50 percent of a population of test animals ) for ALL known medications used in the aquatic trade is exactly the same for ALL species of tropical fish, at ALL of the various life stages, including ALL size/weights, from small fry and juvenile guppies, to adult RTC's. Think about it.


And that does not even factor in the potential for related disease down the road, such as tumours, cancer, etc.

What you are suggesting is not only illogical, it's based on pure fantasy.

 

[viejafish]

I am not really recommending over dosing medication and believe that it is always safe. The few times I did it because I wanted to give the sick fish a short term high dosage medication bath because I did not have a dedicated hospital tank to treat the fish. Another times the fish were so sick to be responsive to the medication, so I double the dosage to see if it made a difference. I was monitoring the fish closely to see if it showed any sign of intoxication. At the end the fish died from progression of the disease, not from any toxicity effect I observed.

I try to avoid medicating fish as much as possible and believe that natural healing is the best approach. I only use medication as the last resort, but when I use it, I am not holding back as I believe that under dosage below therapeutic level is worst than no treatment.

 

[deuxe]

I am not really recommending over dosing medication and believe that it is always safe. The few times I did it because I wanted to give the sick fish a short term high dosage medication bath because I did not have a dedicated hospital tank to treat the fish. Another times the fish were so sick to be responsive to the medication, so I double the dosage to see if it made a difference. I was monitoring the fish closely to see if it showed any sign of intoxication. At the end the fish died from progression of the disease, not from any toxicity effect I observed.

I try to avoid medicating fish as much as possible and believe that natural healing is the best approach. I only use medication as the last resort, but when I use it, I am not holding back as I believe that under dosage below therapeutic level is worst than no treatment.

Well heres the reason why i used clout. Started with 4 healthy ebjd, started showing symptoms of white feces treated with epsom salt their appetite went down started bloating 2 died non responsive to metro and prazi so i have two ebjd left and i dont know how much longer they will survive and they still look sickly would u watch the fish waste away from pain cause of natural healing cause it sure looks like natural healing was more like a death sentence or use clout the nuke the problem and hope for the best? Like i said it was a last resort


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