Concerning cichlids that "police" the tank.

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darwinvsjesus

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
May 5, 2010
130
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Tonawanda, NY
So, my consists of a shoal of a dozen large clown loaches. Wait, sorry, 10 clown loaches. I sold my two largest. Irrelevant, a lima shovelnose cat, an argentea and a P. managuensis. The argentea is a total jackass. He is the only cichlid I have ever seen that attacks clown loaches. My theory is that it's his downward facing mouth, he feeds on the bottom and doesn't like them doing so.

Now, here's where it gets weird. My argentea is about 9 inches, the *male* Jag is about 14 inches. Whenever the argentea attacks the loaches, he chases the argentea away, or worse. I'll know I need to watch closely for a while when I hear something hit the glass. I have seen this happen. argentea bites loach, jag rams argentea into glass, spits out scales.

The jaguar spends hours digging a spot under the 'main' driftwood piece, but he lets the clown loaches in. He never attacks them. He seems fond of them, and whenever any of my cichlids have attacked them, they've been chased away and in a few instances, killed. An amphilophus festae was killed, which broke my heart. But I had the jag first. He's probably going to be the only cichlid as I am giving away the argentea. I might try an Umbee, knowing full well that once they hit around 12-14 inches they don't mix with other cichlids well. I highly doubt they bother other fish, so long as they don't feel threatened [which includes being antagonized by their 'keepers!']

The jag has rammed into my hand when I was moving rocks where the loaches hide during water changes. I see no other explanation for this.

Has anyone ever experienced this? I always said, jokingly, that clown loaches are the most likable fish you can put in a tank, all the fish will love them. I'm kidding, as my argentea as proven.

I want to know if anyone has ever had this happen, or had unlikely mixes where large 'aggressive' [loaded term!] cichlids tolerate or even protect clowns.

Though most of the clowns are about 8 inches long, 4 of them are small enough for the jag to easily swallow whole. And the Lima. He won't do it, even when I forget to feed all day. He won't let the lima near them.

Oh, one last thing. My p. managensis spawned with a Dovii and even when the eggs hatched and they were guarding fry, they allowed the loaches in their territory. They attacked no one. I don't bang on the glass to get my fish to bite and look 'aggressive', and I strongly believe this is why I have had so much luck with many cichlids.
 
darwinvsjesus said:
So, my consists of a shoal of a dozen large clown loaches. Wait, sorry, 10 clown loaches. I sold my two largest. Irrelevant, a lima shovelnose cat, an argentea and a P. managuensis. The argentea is a total jackass. He is the only cichlid I have ever seen that attacks clown loaches. My theory is that it's his downward facing mouth, he feeds on the bottom and doesn't like them doing so.

Now, here's where it gets weird. My argentea is about 9 inches, the *male* Jag is about 14 inches. Whenever the argentea attacks the loaches, he chases the argentea away, or worse. I'll know I need to watch closely for a while when I hear something hit the glass. I have seen this happen. argentea bites loach, jag rams argentea into glass, spits out scales.

The jaguar spends hours digging a spot under the 'main' driftwood piece, but he lets the clown loaches in. He never attacks them. He seems fond of them, and whenever any of my cichlids have attacked them, they've been chased away and in a few instances, killed. An amphilophus festae was killed, which broke my heart. But I had the jag first. He's probably going to be the only cichlid as I am giving away the argentea. I might try an Umbee, knowing full well that once they hit around 12-14 inches they don't mix with other cichlids well. I highly doubt they bother other fish, so long as they don't feel threatened [which includes being antagonized by their 'keepers!']

The jag has rammed into my hand when I was moving rocks where the loaches hide during water changes. I see no other explanation for this.

Has anyone ever experienced this? I always said, jokingly, that clown loaches are the most likable fish you can put in a tank, all the fish will love them. I'm kidding, as my argentea as proven.

I want to know if anyone has ever had this happen, or had unlikely mixes where large 'aggressive' [loaded term!] cichlids tolerate or even protect clowns.

Though most of the clowns are about 8 inches long, 4 of them are small enough for the jag to easily swallow whole. And the Lima. He won't do it, even when I forget to feed all day. He won't let the lima near them.

Oh, one last thing. My p. managensis spawned with a Dovii and even when the eggs hatched and they were guarding fry, they allowed the loaches in their territory. They attacked no one. I don't bang on the glass to get my fish to bite and look 'aggressive', and I strongly believe this is why I have had so much luck with many cichlids.
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What you have is called a mediator. Nearly every community tank has one, even if it is not cichlids. I don't think your jag is protecting the cl exactly, but he is just keeping the peace. I don't get the banging on the glass part. Not many people do that as far as I know. And your success with cichlids might be their temperament, not glass banging.
 
I've got a couple mediators in my tank. It's always interesting to watch, too. To my knowledge, it's ONLY been temperament of the individual fish to cause them to behave this way. It's actually entertaining to watch this happen. I even named my Gibby pleco "Chief" because if there is a skirmish going on, he will swim directly between the two fish fighting and sit right there until they disperse!
 
It happens all the time. He is not policing to break up fight, but acting on his own because the aggressive behavior appears to challenge his dominance.
 
Hmmm, cool. Never thought of a jag as a mediator. Then again, misconceptions of fish are common. I take it you raised the jag with the loaches? Perhaps that's why he's not aggressive towards them.
 
my midas is my piece keeper!-)
 
With cichlids, often you will find that one, (usually a larger male) will seemingly appear to mediate the tank. I've had similar situations happen in my aquarium. What I've found is that the fish may not actually care about the other fish themselves, he just will not welcome any additional displays of aggression in his territory, as this challenges his authority. You definitely do have a unique situation though.
 
I did not raise the CL together with the jag. I did however, raise the jag from 2 inches (!). I realize temperament has a lot to do with the fish being intolerant of others or not, but I find it extremely difficulty to believe that every cichlid I ever had [trimac, red terror, green terror, male salvini, dovii, jag, others] were all easy-going. The odds that I *never* got a 'mean' fish is absurd.

Or aggression is over-stated. Or there's more variation than I thought. Now, here's why I think tapping on the glass and such causes intolerance.

Usually you see this with dovii, umbee, other large cichlids. In an empty tank, nowhere to retreat, they have to see (and charge) their reflections all day. Then you bang/tap on the glass, taunt the fish with your fingers. The fish is already on the defensive, and probably very afraid because they have nowhere to retreat to. Once you do that, they now feel threatened from all sides, and then refuse to allow another fish in the tank. Or kill whatever is in there. I had an umbee for a while. About 6 inches, which is still quite young, but he was so timid I had to move him over and over. He was killed by the red terror because he kept retreating to her hiding spot. This is territorial, not aggressive, behavior. We'll see what the new umbee does. He's bigger.

Now, before you get uppity about it being cruel, please note that I am deeply involved in the AR movement, I know alllll about, and avoid cruelty. I love my fish, and if I have to move to a basement apartment to safely get a bigger tank [and lose one bedroom], you bet I will.

Thanks for the input everyone. It's interesting to imagine the jag sees the other cichlid's attacks as a challenge of dominance. I wonder why he won't let the lima near them? This is not just in his space, but I often find him hanging out on the bottom with the loaches. I'll get some pictures.
 
darwinvsjesus said:
I did not raise the CL together with the jag. I did however, raise the jag from 2 inches (!). I realize temperament has a lot to do with the fish being intolerant of others or not, but I find it extremely difficulty to believe that every cichlid I ever had [trimac, red terror, green terror, male salvini, dovii, jag, others] were all easy-going. The odds that I *never* got a 'mean' fish is absurd.

Or aggression is over-stated. Or there's more variation than I thought. Now, here's why I think tapping on the glass and such causes intolerance.

Usually you see this with dovii, umbee, other large cichlids. In an empty tank, nowhere to retreat, they have to see (and charge) their reflections all day. Then you bang/tap on the glass, taunt the fish with your fingers. The fish is already on the defensive, and probably very afraid because they have nowhere to retreat to. Once you do that, they now feel threatened from all sides, and then refuse to allow another fish in the tank. Or kill whatever is in there. I had an umbee for a while. About 6 inches, which is still quite young, but he was so timid I had to move him over and over. He was killed by the red terror because he kept retreating to her hiding spot. This is territorial, not aggressive, behavior. We'll see what the new umbee does. He's bigger.

Now, before you get uppity about it being cruel, please note that I am deeply involved in the AR movement, I know alllll about, and avoid cruelty. I love my fish, and if I have to move to a basement apartment to safely get a bigger tank [and lose one bedroom], you bet I will.

Thanks for the input everyone. It's interesting to imagine the jag sees the other cichlid's attacks as a challenge of dominance. I wonder why he won't let the lima near them? This is not just in his space, but I often find him hanging out on the bottom with the loaches. I'll get some pictures.
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If you have ample hiding spots then your theory wouldn't apply. Did you have all of your past cichlids in the same tank? I had 4 jack dempseys in the same tank that were aggressive, but I can tell you I never tapped glass, and gave them amply room to hide.
 
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