Continuation of monitor care & diet discussion...

[Ophiuchus]

The great sav diet debate.... My man Frank Retes would disagree with you. Hes bred almost every monitor species CONSISTANTLY for the past 20 years or so, and if it werent for him, you wouldnt even see half the monitor species you do now. He feeds ALL of his monitors nothing but crickets and mice. NOTHING. And look, his are the healthiest, largest, and best breeding animals in the country. He outbreeds all zoos combined by a longshot. So make of that what you will.

There's two very big "buts" here though.

1.) I'm very certain Frank Retes provides his adult specimens with much more spacious and intellectually-stimulating enclosures than most monitor owners. A monitor with plenty of space and furnishings to interact with will be more likely to exercise and burn off those extra calories than one sitting inside a 75-gallon with nothing to do but sleep 24/7.

2.) Do you know the exact ratio of crickets vs rodents he feeds to all his monitors species? I'm sure this varies tremendously from species and age of each animal.

Also remember that this is a hobby and what works for some doesn't always work for others. Yes, I agree that Frank Retes is a fantastic monitor keeper. However, most people are not and the scenario I described in the other thread is regrettably the norm for most captive savs. In addition to the feeding issues, most people do not provide enough space and stimulation for their varanids, even though they're arguably one of the most intelligent family of lizards. Its like keeping an African grey parrot in a cockatiel cage with only one toy.

I still hold to my opinion that feeding methods are a deciding factor in a savs' health just as much as their diet. I had my Titan for 2 yrs and he was fed crickets, mealworms, waxworms, snails eggs, and canned monitor food.

I fed him one mouse only because none of my snakes were hungry. As mentioned before, Titan was a puppy dog. (he was about 30" long in that pic)

I eventually had to move away to school and find him a new home. I ended up giving him to a friend of a friend. Last I heard, that person immediately took to feeding him nothing but rats and claimed that Titan was a ferocious monster. Of course, I don't knwo how he was feeding and how often, but still...my theory holds merit.

Make of that what you will.

 

[dreamandscheme]

i'm more worried about space than diet. the care sheet i read said a 4'x2'x2' enclosure for an ackie. this sounds a bit small for a 2' lizard.

 

[Kioka]

That's a minimal requirement... for them...

 

[dreamandscheme]

is the diet the same for all monitors? i was looking into the blue tree monitor (Varanus macraei)

 

[Ophiuchus]

No, its not the same for every species. Some eat primarily rodents, some invetebrates, some eat fish...all are different. There's even one species that eats exclusively fruit. Thats why research is so important.

 

[davo]

Every time I've seen adult monitors being fed (of various species) at research centres and zoological institutes it has been either chicks or rodent prey (and more insect type diet for young 'uns). When asked, the rodents would be more a staple, and insects/mealworms (with smaller species), fish and meat based gelatins were used as common supplements. Now I know these are general notes, and should be treated as such (and to mention these observations are mostly with larger Varanids), is there any proven problem with feeding rodents? There is quite a lot of literature on them nowadays a lot of studying, and I'm sure it's just scratched the surface. I know they may live on different things in the wild (lots of monitors prey on other lizards predominantly) but I know that many of the snakes we keep prey on other things than rodents (which is not necessarily they're main food source either) yet we feed nothing else with no consequences.
I am still learning about Varanids and these are just points for discussion.

 

[AttackFish]

I'd also like to know more about this. I really want to get some ackies some day, and work my way into larger monitors, maybe even Varunus Varanus.

 

[loconorc]

Dreamandscheme, if I were you I wouldnt even think of keeping a blue tree monitor. Just too difficult and too expensive if and when you lose it.

Ophiocus, the Butaan (Grays monitor) doesnt eat exclusively fruit. Its a significant portion of its diet, but not by any means exclusive. No monitor eats exclusively anything. Just pointing that out, its not really relevent but whatever

Anyhoo...
Ratio of crickets to mice? I couldnt tell ya. Want me to find out? Its no problem and Im sure hed be glad to answer, but be prepared! xD Hahaha if youve talked to him you know what I mean!

I realize some diets 'work' better than others. But why stray from something so easy and proven to be healthy? Why go through the trouble and money of getting snail eggs, walrus dung, peach cobbler or whatever the heck people feed animals these days when you can have a proven effective diet shipped to your door? Or bred in your garage, whatever you get it lol

Ophi, I agree with you in the paragraph about stimulation. Thats a huge reason most people shouldnt keep them in the first place! And leads to this huge debate in the first place.

So if you want me to Ill ask Frank about mice to crickets ratio, and whatever else he has to say. Later!

 

[Ophiuchus]

Ophiocus, the Butaan (Grays monitor) doesnt eat exclusively fruit. Its a significant portion of its diet, but not by any means exclusive. No monitor eats exclusively anything. Just pointing that out, its not really relevent but whatever

I don't recall mentioning the Gray's monitor specifically, but whoopsie on me anyway. I read that somewhere, but apparently I didn't do enough research on the subject. (see there, folks? thats the trouble of relying on a single source of info! I fell for it, too!)

So no monitor eats exclusively one thing, huh? Interesting....so you agree that just feeding them rodents is bad? Glad to hear it.

Ratio of crickets to mice? I couldnt tell ya. Want me to find out? Its no problem and Im sure hed be glad to answer, but be prepared! xD Hahaha if youve talked to him you know what I mean!

Ummm...it was kind of a rhetorical question. I'm perfectly capable of emailing the man myself, but if you want to bother him, go ahead. Whatever the ratio is, apparently it works for him, and although I don't necessarily agree with it, I can't knock it. Of course, he probably pulls it off because, as I mentioned before, he provides plenty of space/stimulation for his animals, as most others do not.

But why stray from something so easy and proven to be healthy? Why go through the trouble and money of getting snail eggs, walrus dung, peach cobbler or whatever the heck people feed animals these days when you can have a proven effective diet shipped to your door? Or bred in your garage, whatever you get it lol

Okay....if you want to argue the economics of it - I suppose I could devote the back corner of my garage to a breeding colony of more animals I have to feed and take care = easily $30+ a month, plus the nasty odor of rodents everytime I go in my garage**

Ooorrr.....for the same cost (probably less), I can routinely buy enough insects (crickets, mealworms, waxworms, etc) at my local baitshop or petstore, eggs at the grocery store (which most people buy eggs for some purpose anyway), and a can of monitor diet...thus offering my lizard a more varied diet that more closely resembles his natural diet.

Oh wait...it is much easier just to toss the thing a rat every 3 days than to take the extra 5 mins out of my day to prepare him a healthier meal.

You are correct in that I can have frozen rodents shipped right to my door for less cost than both of the options above...but guess what? I can have crickets, mealworms and waxworms shipped just as easily, and they're cheaper than mice!


**I can see the logic behind this if someone has a lot of herps that all eat mice. But if you have only one or two reptiles, its rarely worth it. However, if you have a outlet to get rid of the excess baby mice and you don't mind taking care of them, more power to you.

 

[loconorc]

I said no monitor eats one thing. Yes, a diet of only rodents is bad IMO. I said Frank feeds mice AND crickets.

I dont think it matters if it 'resembles' its natural diet. Same thing with almost everything else in the herp hobby. As long as it works and works well.

Do what you want, no ones stoppin' ya and no ones arguing. Just stating my opinion and my way of doing things.