Continuation of monitor care & diet discussion...

[varanio]

I don't recall mentioning the Gray's monitor specifically, but whoopsie on me anyway. I read that somewhere, but apparently I didn't do enough research on the subject. (see there, folks? thats the trouble of relying on a single source of info! I fell for it, too!)

So no monitor eats exclusively one thing, huh? Interesting....so you agree that just feeding them rodents is bad? Glad to hear it.



Ummm...it was kind of a rhetorical question. I'm perfectly capable of emailing the man myself, but if you want to bother him, go ahead. Whatever the ratio is, apparently it works for him, and although I don't necessarily agree with it, I can't knock it. Of course, he probably pulls it off because, as I mentioned before, he provides plenty of space/stimulation for his animals, as most others do not.



Okay....if you want to argue the economics of it - I suppose I could devote the back corner of my garage to a breeding colony of more animals I have to feed and take care = easily $30+ a month, plus the nasty odor of rodents everytime I go in my garage**

Ooorrr.....for the same cost (probably less), I can routinely buy enough insects (crickets, mealworms, waxworms, etc) at my local baitshop or petstore, eggs at the grocery store (which most people buy eggs for some purpose anyway), and a can of monitor diet...thus offering my lizard a more varied diet that more closely resembles his natural diet.

Oh wait...it is much easier just to toss the thing a rat every 3 days than to take the extra 5 mins out of my day to prepare him a healthier meal.

You are correct in that I can have frozen rodents shipped right to my door for less cost than both of the options above...but guess what? I can have crickets, mealworms and waxworms shipped just as easily, and they're cheaper than mice!


**I can see the logic behind this if someone has a lot of herps that all eat mice. But if you have only one or two reptiles, its rarely worth it. However, if you have a outlet to get rid of the excess baby mice and you don't mind taking care of them, more power to you.

There is the option of buying frozen rodents chicks etc etc so that you dont have to deal with the odor of the rodents if you want an alternative to breeding crickets.

I think what loco is trying to say ( correct me if Im wrong loco) is that most larger species of monitors do NOT do well on insect diet mixed with egg and canned monitor food. Reason being is that most larger species need larger food intake = larger meals in order to keep their system going. I dont think a monitor in the wild is going to successfully catch and eat 500 crickets to fill its digestive tract, why not just go after a mouse, another reptile or a bird, hit and miss a couple of times but spend less energy than chasing 500 very agile crickets. So when you the keeper decide to invoke this feeding regimen on a species of animal that is not use to it you will see unatural behaviors. Like the whole puppy dog taming thing that people love to label their animals to.

Given the right resources, which include proper diet, proper temps, water, ample room, hiding places, etc.... your monitor will ultimatley start acting like a monitor. Granted a monitor will get use to you and let you interact with it, but at the same time given all the afore mentioned, it will act like a monitor, one that protects its territory(Space) and if it has bonded with its mate (if applicabale) will protect it as well. So maybe your friends friend did a better job at taking care of your savannah because it is acting more like a monitor? Just opinion since I know nothing of your friends friend setup, but by speculating he must be doing something right IE proper diet temps etc... to suddenly have a monitor that is alive and alert rather than dull "puppy dog tame"

 

[varanio]

Blue trees require a little more work, they need anything any other monitor would just think more vertical and more water which in turn gives it more humidity, the most important thing to keep in mind is feeding them often and hydrating them often, this will boost the immune system up and they will pass parasites, they dont have the ability to store fat like other species so thats why humidity and food intake is so important.

Ackies are great first monitors Iv always had them, they have the best personalities and pack the personality of any large species, 4x2x2 is the minimum and would go 6x2x2 if resources permit. Stay away from imports until you learn how to succesfully keep cb species alive and well is my advice.

 

[loconorc]

Yup yup yup

 

[Ophiuchus]

There is the option of buying frozen rodents chicks etc etc so that you dont have to deal with the odor of the rodents if you want an alternative to breeding crickets.

I know...and thus acknowledged it in that post you quoted from me.

Reason being is that most larger species need larger food intake = larger meals in order to keep their system going. I dont think a monitor in the wild is going to successfully catch and eat 500 crickets to fill its digestive tract, why not just go after a mouse, another reptile or a bird, hit and miss a couple of times but spend less energy than chasing 500 very agile crickets.

I never said they actually ate crickets in the wild (are there even crickets in Africa?). I said invertebrates; forgive me for being vague. That would include: various insects, insect larvae, snails, other large inverts (spiders, scorpions, etc), various worms, occasionally eggs & carrion. Of course, they also relish large prey like: small mammals, rodents, other lizards and snakes. I totally agree that one mouse or lizard is worth a handful of bugs (as I'm sure the monitor would, too)...but here's the thing: those big "payoff" prey items don't come by all the time (and certainly not every day!). Finding that nest of mice or a big, dead rotting carcass is like bonus round on a video game. True, they love it and it's good for them...but it all goes back to that gorge factor I mentioned earlier. Its quite possible to have too much of a good thing...even for savannah monitors. Eating a rat every other day has been proven to cause constipation and even impaction in savs, due to the coarser, thicker hair. Without other things to supplement their diet, sometimes their system can't handle the load, so to speak.

So when you the keeper decide to invoke this feeding regimen on a species of animal that is not use to it you will see unatural behaviors. Like the whole puppy dog taming thing that people love to label their animals to.

Given the right resources, which include proper diet, proper temps, water, ample room, hiding places, etc.... your monitor will ultimatley start acting like a monitor. Granted a monitor will get use to you and let you interact with it, but at the same time given all the afore mentioned, it will act like a monitor,

There's two different schools of thought concerning this realm of "natural' behavior. Having an assertive, active monitor that is kept in an adequately-stimulating environment is one thing; having a nasty, aggressive one that bites anything that moves is another. IMO, this is more of a personality thing and/or human interaction thing than just chalking it up to "X amount of space" plus "monitor" equals "Y temperment."

one that protects its territory(Space) and if it has bonded with its mate (if applicabale) will protect it as well.

Neither here nor there in regards to this discussion, but monitors do not bond with conspecifics and certainly have no instinctual drive to protect one another.

So maybe your friends friend did a better job at taking care of your savannah because it is acting more like a monitor? Just opinion since I know nothing of your friends friend setup, but by speculating he must be doing something right IE proper diet temps etc... to suddenly have a monitor that is alive and alert rather than dull "puppy dog tame"

Sooo.....any tame monitor is automatically "unhealthy"? Is that whats being said here?

 

[Ophiuchus]

As long as it works and works well.

In other words, it hasn't died yet, huh?

Being alive and being alive & healthy are two different things.

 

[varanio]

I know...and thus acknowledged it in that post you quoted from me.
I never said they actually ate crickets in the wild (are there even crickets in Africa?). I said invertebrates; forgive me for being vague. That would include: various insects, insect larvae, snails, other large inverts (spiders, scorpions, etc), various worms, occasionally eggs & carrion. Of course, they also relish large prey like: small mammals, rodents, other lizards and snakes. I totally agree that one mouse or lizard is worth a handful of bugs (as I'm sure the monitor would, too)...but here's the thing: those big "payoff" prey items don't come by all the time (and certainly not every day!). Finding that nest of mice or a big, dead rotting carcass is like bonus round on a video game. True, they love it and it's good for them...but it all goes back to that gorge factor I mentioned earlier. Its quite possible to have too much of a good thing...even for savannah monitors. Eating a rat every other day has been proven to cause constipation and even impaction in savs, due to the coarser, thicker hair. Without other things to supplement their diet, sometimes their system can't handle the load, so to speak.



There's two different schools of thought concerning this realm of "natural' behavior. Having an assertive, active monitor that is kept in an adequately-stimulating environment is one thing; having a nasty, aggressive one that bites anything that moves is another. IMO, this is more of a personality thing and/or human interaction thing than just chalking it up to "X amount of space" plus "monitor" equals "Y temperment."

Where is the other school of thought and where is there a concrete example of this statement, from a reputable source that has done extensive research on the matter?



Neither here nor there in regards to this discussion, but monitors do not bond with conspecifics and certainly have no instinctual drive to protect one another.


Really? So ritualized combat over a mate, territory, etc...and or nest guarding before and during nesting has never been witnessed? Interesting.

Sooo.....any tame monitor is automatically "unhealthy"? Is that whats being said here?

I dont think there are any tame monitors, I believe monitors get accustomed to their human care taker. I am not an advocate of the puppy dog tame label monitors get from idiotic people that dont provide the right resources for healthy animals, thus all the fat lathargic animals you see labeled as dog tame.


Do you have any research to back up your statement of them not bonding? If so Id like to see where you got it from. If you can provide a link or cite a book, journal, or article, or even a paper that would be great! So you mean to tell me in Arid African regions insects inverts etc etc are more abundant than mamilian and or avian prey? Again do you have any scientific proof of that? Africa is a land of many many comes and goes. There could abundant invert prey one minute and the next they are gone. I agree with that they take advantage of whats available, but remember they are opportunistic of whats abundant. Thus stating that if only whole prey items such as birds or mamals are the only thing available at one particular season over another they will eat these prey items and not have issues with impaction and the such that you mention here.

It all boils down to the way you keep your monitors, if you do not provide adequate resources high heat and temp ranges down into the 70's then your setting your self up and your monitor for failure. They also need deep substrate for digging, they thermoregulate in their burrows, they sleep in them, and fulfill other life events in them. Did you keep your sav in such conditions? Did you offer a great range of temps? Only you have the answers to those questions.

Not trying to be argumentive, but I would like to know more about your reasoning behind all this, after only keeping one sav from what I have read. I think in order to make such declarations one would need to have more hands on experience in keeping and or breeding monitors in order to more fully understand their, behaviors, characterisitcs, preferences, etc etc etc ..

cheers

 

[Ophiuchus]

Where is the other school of thought and where is there a concrete example of this statement, from a reputable source that has done extensive research on the matter?

I apologize for my poor phrasing. I was implying that one line of thinking was that the only healthy monitor is an aggressive monitor that abhors human contact at all contacts (which seems to be your mentality) . The second one was simply people who don't subject to the first one, people who can acknowledge that a healthy monitor can tolerate handling from time to time.

No, there is no scientific manuscript written by a qualified herp vet that declares the existence of these two lines of thinking. The statement was made by me based on my own observations and experiences with other varanid owners. Some people seem to think that if you're able to pick up a monitor without it biting you, then it must be sick and has to be rushed to the vet. Just seems a little too fundamentalist to me...

Really? So ritualized combat over a mate, territory, etc...and or nest guarding before and during nesting has never been witnessed? Interesting.

Ritualized combat over a female is different. I know many animals do that. You made it sound like they pair-bond for life like swans or crocs. Never heard of a monitor defending a mate. And I've also never read that varanids stay and guard their eggs after they lay them. Since you first brought up the issue of bonding, I believe you should cite some sources that back those claims. If you do, I'll admit my ignorance on that matter and move on

I dont think there are any tame monitors, I believe monitors get accustomed to their human care taker. I am not an advocate of the puppy dog tame label monitors get from idiotic people that dont provide the right resources for healthy animals, thus all the fat lathargic animals you see labeled as dog tame.

Okay then...pardon my wording. Is a "human-contact-tolerating" monitor automatically considered unhealthy? I'm only asking you this because now you're questioning how I kept my monitor and essentially you're saying what I was doing is wrong; that just because he was handable, he must have not been healthy.

Sorry if I take offense to that.

So you mean to tell me in Arid African regions insects inverts etc etc are more abundant than mamilian and or avian prey? Again do you have any scientific proof of that? Africa is a land of many many comes and goes. There could abundant invert prey one minute and the next they are gone. I agree with that they take advantage of whats available, but remember they are opportunistic of whats abundant.

Wow. I thought this was highschool textbook stuff. Insects are the single most abundant class of animals on the planet and Africa is no exception. I thought this was pretty common knowledge; apparently I was wrong. So you're saying that if you walk out in the grasslands of west Africa, you're more likely to stumble upon a lizard or a mouse than any kind of insect?

I agree that they're opportunistic; it actually proves both our points. A day in the life of a wild sav....he's waddling along, and he comes across a grubworm or something. He's not going to think, "Hmmm....I'll pass and just wait til I find a gerbil." He's gonna slurp up the worm and keep looking. [I anthropomorphized there a bit; he actually has no choice; he's just acting on instinct.] I understand there's seasonal changes and insects migrate from time to time, but saying that the vertebrate species in Africa outnumber the invert species at any given time is ludicrous. I suppose if you still disagree, we can sit down and catalog all the invert species native to a wild savs range and research their life cycles. Just seems like a tedious route just for prove I was right.

I never said they get impaction in the wild (i.e. from that varied and balance diet I keep preaching about)...only from captive savs with no room to exercise and thrown huge rats every other day.

It all boils down to the way you keep your monitors, if you do not provide adequate resources high heat and temp ranges down into the 70's then your setting your self up and your monitor for failure. They also need deep substrate for digging, they thermoregulate in their burrows, they sleep in them, and fulfill other life events in them. Did you keep your sav in such conditions? Did you offer a great range of temps? Only you have the answers to those questions.

When did I ever say that I didn't do those things? Again, its like you're saying since my sav wasn't dead because of the invert diet and that it was handable, it must have been something I was doing wrong.

Not trying to be argumentive, but I would like to know more about your reasoning behind all this, after only keeping one sav from what I have read. I think in order to make such declarations one would need to have more hands on experience in keeping and or breeding monitors in order to more fully understand their, behaviors, characterisitcs, preferences, etc etc etc ..

Okay, I've only kept one sav personally in my own home. I have had experience with many others, both pet store captives under my supervision (asst manager at LPS) and helping friends with their savs. I'm not drawing my conclusions from experience with just one animal. I'll admit though, I've never attempted to breed them.

 

[jwarriner]

I fed him one mouse only because none of my snakes were hungry. As mentioned before, Titan was a puppy dog. (he was about 30" long in that pic)

Last I heard, that person immediately took to feeding him nothing but rats and claimed that Titan was a ferocious monster.

To me this says what you were doing was wrong and what the new owner is doing is right. Any time I hear about a "puppy dog" tame monitor the first thing I think is, "what's wrong with him?"

 

[Ophiuchus]

Oh dear God....its the phrasing?! Just because I actually said "puppy dog"?! So if I had said, "Titan regularly tolerated human contact," what would your response be?

Sheesh...last time I use that metaphor.

 

[Ophiuchus]

To anyone reading this, for the record, I do not believe any reptile can become "tame" in the sense a dog or cat can be tamed. Sometimes I use the term loosely when referring to herps, and I apologize if anyone misinterprets that. When I do use it, I'm merely referring to describe a reptile that regularly tolerates handling and whatnot without extreme defensive behavior (i.e. biting, tail-whipping, etc). I suppose I should just stick to terms like 'conditioned' and 'accustomed" to avoid confusion.

Having said that, I do believe that varanids, having all of their needs met (space, proper diet, heating, etc), can still reach a state where they tolerate human contact enough to allow themselves to be handled on a routine basis. To simply say that any monitor that exhibits this level of tolerance should automatically be deemed unhealthy or mistreated is pretty narrow-minded. Should we attribute that same mentality to all herps? I can go out in my yard and catch a ratsnake, and he could musk and bite to no end. I could go out the next day, catch another ratsnake, and he could be an absolute angel (no I don't believe that the snake is a real celestial being with wings and a halo - I'm using a METAPHOR to compare this snake's attitude to the first snakes'). Is snake #2 less healthy than snake #1? Don't know about anyone else, but when I'm looking at the health of an animal, I'm examining body weight, skin ailments, parasites, etc....not too concerned about its attitude. Now if its an animal that I've had for years acting one way and all of the sudden, acted another, that's a different story.

I also never said that one should NEVER feed their monitor rodents. I only disagree with the quantity and frequency of it, especially compared to other food items. I'm sorry, but feeding a sav a rat everyday is excessive, especially if not fed anything else. A rat 2x a week (or possibly 3 mice a week) sounds more reasonable. [BTW, I will be posting refs for the "gorge factor' soon; this is something that has been documented.]

I also understand that crickets are too small for adult savs. Thats why I've repeatedly mentioned mealworms (I suppose I mean superworms), locusts, eggs and snails. I don't understand why people think these items are hard to come by. I mean, you can get snails at most any petstore that offers fish. I still think there's a laziness factor in here somewhere.