Cutting rays stingers

[T1KARMANN]

It can get infected and it will cause just as much stress as clipping... I respect TKs opinions but the veterinarian (charney) and the professional shark guy (zoo diver) both said clipping is fine and you can train your rays.

He said you can train SW rays no one has said you can train FW rays

How many touch pools have you see with FW rays I haven't seen any

SW rays like to interact with humans FW rays don't interact so willingly


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[Zoodiver]

You can do the same with FW rays as you do with marine rays for training. I had mixed species pools, and use to have them trained to different targets for feeding. It would allow us to control the diets and break up aggression during feeding.
I've seen a few FW ray touch pools in the US. Usually with large motoros.

I know nothing about SW rays and have never claimed to but are the barbs ribbed the full length like FW rays

All I know it's clipping the tip off a FW ray won't save you
The full barb is ribbed on a FW ray which is why it's near impossible to get it free from a net
I can't see how clipping a FW barb would help you would need to remove the whole thing
I have taken large barbs out of my tank and they still make my fingers tingle

The problem is even they slightest amount of barb the goes into the skin will rip a big chunk of skin off as it's pulled out

Barbs are the same FW and SW. Trimming doesn't usually mean just blunting the tip, but taking the barb off flush at the base. (Not cutting into the tail or pulling anything out, just a straight cut.) It leaves maybe a a point or two of the serrated edge, but it's close enough to the tail that it is almost impossible to do any damage with it. It also leave enough barb for the ray to naturally grow it out and shed without worry if infection or ending up with an ingrown barb. Most human injuries are due to the sharp tip, not just a cut from the edge of the barb. Check out the pics in the link in post #2. There is a pic of trimmed off and cleaned barb from a young spotted eagle ray. You can see how similar they are to the FW rays.

 

[flip4EvR45]

I've done a lot of research on both SW and FW rays. T1, I respect your opinions, but the way FW and SW rays minds work is very similar. Neither dislikes nor likes humans more then the other. Given time, both types of rays will accept human exposure. Trimming is often used because what normally kills humans (and other animals) is the tip. When a stingray is preparing to strike, it usually readies its stinger slightly to the opposite side of the rays main body and target. But the KEY to a stingrays sting is ALL in the positioning of the barb. The barb is designed to PENETRATE, not saw..... They tested this on RIVER MONSTERS, and several ray sites show diagrams of the way a barb enters a victim. If a barb simply grazes a body, it will do NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE compared to a direct penetration. Therefore, making the tip dull is a way to stop the sting from being as harmful, and gives the stingray less range.

 

[T1KARMANN]

If trimming is so easy and not harmful it makes me wonder why wild caught rays have the air line put on the barb before shipping

Surely it would be much more easy to just trim the barbs

I think the SW rays you see in touch pools do interact better with people mainly due to the fact that most SW rays in the touch pools mainly swim in mid water in the pools but a FW ray would stay much closer to the floor


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[davenmandy]

I've done a lot of research on both SW and FW rays. T1, I respect your opinions, but the way FW and SW rays minds work is very similar. Neither dislikes nor likes humans more then the other. Given time, both types of rays will accept human exposure. Trimming is often used because what normally kills humans (and other animals) is the tip. When a stingray is preparing to strike, it usually readies its stinger slightly to the opposite side of the rays main body and target. But the KEY to a stingrays sting is ALL in the positioning of the barb. The barb is designed to PENETRATE, not saw..... They tested this on RIVER MONSTERS, and several ray sites show diagrams of the way a barb enters a victim. If a barb simply grazes a body, it will do NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE compared to a direct penetration. Therefore, making the tip dull is a way to stop the sting from being as harmful, and gives the stingray less range.

Interesting that you bring up river monsters, I could have sworn that I learned from him on his episode about stingrays that they in fact use their tail as a club and not as a piercing weapons. I was under the impression that it is more rare to be pierced with it than for the ray to swing his tail super hard and hit you with any spikes it can. Again going of vague memory here, maybe watching the episode again is warranted now haha, but I could have sworn I heard they dont attack with a piercing motion but a swing that pierces only at the right angle. Could very well be wrong though.

 

[Zoodiver]

If trimming is so easy and not harmful it makes me wonder why wild caught rays have the air line put on the barb before shipping

Surely it would be much more easy to just trim the barbs

I think the SW rays you see in touch pools do interact better with people mainly due to the fact that most SW rays in the touch pools mainly swim in mid water in the pools but a FW ray would stay much closer to the floor

Speed. If you are just packing and shipping, a sleeve is cheaper, easier and less risk to the staff who are usually rushing. It also has to do with the 'product' for the buyer. Some people will want a 'hot' ray with the barb in tact. I'd say about 50% of the rays I get in are trimmed and 50% tubed. I've never run into someone saying they don't want a ray because of the barb being on it, but I have seen people shy away from an animal that had it trimmed.

As for the FW vs SW for interactions, it's all in how the pool is set up. Shallow pools make much easier interaction displays vs deep water for either type. I'd say a majority of marine ray touch pools in the US use a combination of Cownose stingray and Southern stingrays - so you get a mix of mid column swimmers and benthics. That being said, how many FW ray owners have seen theirs climb the side of the glass tank to get to the top if they want something? 99% is my guess. The FW ray touch pools I've seen are all elevated and about 24" deep so guests can get their hands in and easily reach a ray if it's close to the edge. Any good touch pool will have areas the rays can be away from people if they choose to be.

 

[dxdx]

Interesting that you bring up river monsters, I could have sworn that I learned from him on his episode about stingrays that they in fact use their tail as a club and not as a piercing weapons.

Maybe you got mixed up watching the show and remembered it backwards? They do mainly pierce - the show had a slab of meat next to the ray and showed in slow motion how it got pierced. Made me super cautious being around my rays - do not want to have that happen!! I doubt many people get hit by their ray tail and are not pierced.

Strange this is such a heated topic, although I guess it's mainly one person being opposed to it.

I would try to leave the rays natural, but if there's a need for it, there's no harm done, somewhat like clipping nails.

 

[T1KARMANN]

All valid points

But

For a ray to sting with the tip of its barb then surely it would need to be swimming backward

If the razor edge was used as a gripping and pulling action to rip flesh then it's a much more deadly took

Even when rays are breeding or trying very hard to get a male off they swing the tail to the side making the tip near pointless

I think the razor edge is more of the defence tool than we think


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[Zoodiver]

The ray uses the tail in a side to side motion or a little bit of an arc over the top. I've been tagged and watched them use them many times. We did a video awhile back using a styrofoam sheet to demonstrate the agility of the tail on a motoro. I'm not sure I still have it, but I can look.
In slow motion, you see the end of the end of the tail after the tip slightly bend away from the swing, which exposes a majority of the barb length. Many will also slide their body sideways to help line up the shot. The tip hits first in a vast majority of injuries, and they can be very accurate with them.

 

[aquaman45]

I agree completely with zoodiver on this, he has raised some very good points based on hands on experience.....no substitute for that!

I have been trimming my pups for a very longtime now. I usually do this when ever possible a week or two before shipping them out, during this time the protective membrane grows again surrounding the blunt stump that's left. All that is needed is a pair of snipe nose pliers (long handle ones)to hold the barb firm and clear of the body, a pair of electrical wire cutters is then used to trim the barb...oh yes and the confidence to do it! I catch the ray and place it in a shallow bowl to limit its movement, it usually takes about 30 seconds all in all. I too have noticed shippers in South America are doing this more now, its less stress for the ray because there is no need to remove it from the water. Many of the larger rays 30cm disc plus are man handled in rather a rough way by grabbing the stock (butt) of the tail with leather welding type gloves, this stops the ray from thrashing its tail whilst a sheath it applied, seen the rays going crazy whilst this practice is carried out.
So all in all I like the trimming method, reduces the chance of infection, I have seen a few problems with the sheath method, removed one off a new import and the smell from the dead proteins within the venom was over powering.
Other advantages is the newbie ray keeper has a few months to get used to his or her ray without worrying about being tagged, but most of all I do it because it prevents the bags being punctured whilst in transit.