Do Plants Remove Nitrates

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ja__ said:
hey you obviusly never hear of "poor mans dupla drops"(pmdd) it is the ultimate fertillaisor for planted tanks. you dose the exact ammount of what your plants need to get ultimate growth and algea controll, this includes po4 and no3, but if the plants take up nh3 easier why isnt this a ingredient in the pmdd that they sell in the shops? nh4 is not as far poisiuness as nh3 as far as i know nh4 isnt really poisenous at all in the same amounts that nh3 is
Howdy,

adding nitrate and phosphate to a tank is :screwy: :grinyes: most people are glad when they can get rid of them in order to reduce/prevent algae growth. That's why no aquarium fertilizer should contain them. And indeed, I've never heard of pmdd :grinno: Anyhow, NH3 and NH4+ are in a pH-dependent equilibrium. Which means if you add too much NH4+, you will end up poisoning your fish with ammonia. Not a good thing.

Bottom line: We already have enough nitrate and phosphate for our plants in our tanks. According to Liebig's Law, it won't help plant growth if we add further sources of nitrogen or phosphorus. Thus, quality fertilizers should contain trace elements and especially iron :thumbsup:

HarleyK
 
HarleyK said:
Howdy,

adding nitrate and phosphate to a tank is :screwy: :grinyes: most people are glad when they can get rid of them in order to reduce/prevent algae growth. That's why no aquarium fertilizer should contain them. And indeed, I've never heard of pmdd :grinno:

Bottom line: We already have enough nitrate and phosphate for our plants in our tanks. According to Liebig's Law, it won't help plant growth if we add further sources of nitrogen or phosphorus. Thus, quality fertilizers should contain trace elements and especially iron :thumbsup:

HarleyK
then why does proffesional aquascapers and plant growers use it?

Anyhow, NH3 and NH4+ are in a pH-dependent equilibrium. Which means if you add too much NH4+, you will end up poisoning your fish with ammonia. Not a good thing.
same thing with all of the nitrogen cykle, soo?

Ja__
 
ja__ said:
thanks, i learned something new today:) so they take up nh3 what about nh4? and what about nitrites? are they taken up to?

and then i still dont get it, why dont they sell ammonia in pmdd mode?



NH4


The ionized form of ammonia, which occurs when the water is acidic. It is not toxic to fish as ammonia is, which is why aquariums that have acidic water do not have as many problems with the intial phase of the nitrogen cycle.

Ammonium, the most important nitrogenous fertilizer for water plants, is essential for the breakdown of plant protein.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/termsandtables/g/ammonium.htm


This is turning into a right can of worms :naughty:
 
ja__ said:
then why does proffesional aquascapers and plant growers use it?

same thing with all of the nitrogen cykle, soo?

Ja__


Howdy,

I'd say they don't care about algae the way the aquarium hobbyist does, and if they do, then they probably add some algizide. Most plants are nowadays cultured emersed anyways, so it doesn't matter if their roots are full of algae.

The nitrogen cycle is not pH dependent (w/in homeostatic levels of bacteria involved), but the NH3/NH4 equilibrium is. That's why different threshold values apply to the levels of the measured total, varying with pH.

But if you have experience with ammonium, nitrate and phosphate fertilization, then I'd be greatly interested in what levels (mg/l) you maintain in your tank(s), and at what pH value. Please also add the plant species and fish in those tanks, lighting source and period. That's quite interesting, and I'm curious about your set-up.

Thanks for sharing,
HarleyK
 
HarleyK i asked about what your answers were right or wrong over at APC and i got these answers.

Laith said:
People thought that was true 20 years ago...

If you have a well planted tank, high light and CO2 injection, you *must* add Nitrates and Phosphates or your plant will starve.

If you have a tank with lots of overfed fish, no plants (or very few), 0.5wpg of light, then he may be right!

That moderator may have an area of expertise in fishkeeping but knows absolutely nothing about aquatic plants.

Nitrate (or some bioavailable nitrogen form) and phosphate are essential macronutrients for plants, aquatic or terrestrial. If the poster on the other site has no experience beyond minimally-lighted fish tanks with a few plants, and has not had any interest in following the development of planted tanks over the last 20 years, then that position may be valid for the poster's own tanks. But as a blanket opinion with no reference to lighting levels and density and nature of plantings, it is somewhere between pathetic and simply ignorant. But attacking stupidity, especially willful stupidity, is a futile task. Stating differing views, especially with references, is always valid.

Quote:
Howdy,

adding nitrate and phosphate to a tank is most people are glad when they can get rid of them in order to reduce/prevent algae growth. That's why no aquarium fertilizer should contain them.

This part specifically implies a planted tank, what other type of tank might fertilizer be added too?

If we accept this hypothesis, then how come folks that have been dosing KNO3, KH2PO4 oooooooo, for the last decade or so etc gets algae?
Once, or rarely these observations may be considered abberations, but 1000's over a decade?

How can it be true when we dose this and do not get algae?
Are algae limited at 20-30ppm NO3 and 2-3ppm of PO4 all in the inorganic most biovailable form?

Quote:
And indeed, I've never heard of pmdd

First sign the poster has not done their homework, hey, he does have google and a quick search before you put your foot in your mouth ain't hard and likely a wise move.

Anyhow, NH3 and NH4+ are in a pH-dependent equilibrium. Which means if you add too much NH4+, you will end up poisoning your fish with ammonia. Not a good thing.
We never suggested adding NH4, at least most don't. That will lead to algae, the pH issue is merely one of toxicity and build up. NH4 will cause algae and that is simply how the fish waste starts off.

Plants typically remove all of it in a well balanced or low fish load. You can have a fairly high fish bioload in a planted tank, but you can also add so many fish that unless you do lots of water changes, you'll get algae every time no many what type of dosing you.

We can also add NH4 inorganically and find the same observation.
But the observation of dosing KNO3 does not produce this result.

If the poster has not added either to a planted tank, then he is speaking out of ignorance and speculation, also...........very unwise.

Try and see, then you'll know.
The poster does not have to prove anything to us, we alrerady know.
Rather, the poster needs to prove it to themselves.

Quote:
Bottom line: We already have enough nitrate and phosphate for our plants in our tanks.

Rarely is this the case unless you have low standards.
Even lower light non CO2 tanks can and do benefit from some dosing, of NO3 and PO4, Diana Walstad, myself and a quite a few other folks have added PO4 etc, no algae. She did it with organic forms, fish food etc, at 5ppm of PO4, that's pretty juicy. I added inorganic PO4 to 2 ppm.

I only add it once a week if that. I do not need much there, but still, most fish foods are not balanced forms of plant nutrients, although they do have some, adding a little inorganic PO4, K+, traces, GH on a no water change tank, not enough to allow build up(water changes and test are avoided this way) but enough to relieve the growth limitation for the slow growth rate.

Faster growth, more demand on the NPK inorganic fraction.
Bacteria and plants are not fast enough to remove the NH4 organic forms and process and assimilate it at higher growth rates/light.
So we add a bit more to help.

Quote:
According to Liebig's Law, it won't help plant growth if we add further sources of nitrogen or phosphorus.

Actually according to Liebig's law, it proves just the opposite of this poster's intent.

He assumed that the plants are not limited, in extremely few cases, they almost always are unless the owner adds KNO3/KH2PO4/CO2. Even low light tanks are CO2 limited. Adding CO2 allows the hobbyists to have helathy plant growth at lower light levels than without.

You can add it(NPK) to the substrate, you can add it to the water column, you can have it come in from the water changes etc.

Quote:
Thus, quality fertilizers should contain trace elements and especially iron

HarleyK

Let me see which plants he can grow and which plants I can grow, as well as his scapes. Why doesn't algae appear in our tanks if this is really true?
Has he tried adding KNO3, KH2PO4 to see if what he claims is true?

We have and have not found this to be the case.
Also, why can we find so many lakes with lots of aquatic weeds, high nutrients, and no algae (the water is gin clear)?

Regards, Tom Barr

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=13166
 
HarleyK said:
But if you have experience with ammonium, nitrate and phosphate fertilization, then I'd be greatly interested in what levels (mg/l) you maintain in your tank(s), and at what pH value. Please also add the plant species and fish in those tanks, lighting source and period. That's quite interesting, and I'm curious about your set-up.

Thanks for sharing,
HarleyK
okay HarleK i can add some info on one of my settups:)

63l
4*18w phillips tld 965 6500k
lightning period consists of 9 hours
currently im keeping po4 at 3mg/l and no3 at 10 mg/l
ph 6.5-6.7
kh 3
gh 5
im also dosing a lot of micros cant tell you the mg/l on those though
no fish just shrimp: caridina denticulata sinensis "cherry shrimp" ,Neocaridina cf. zhangjiajiensis "snowball", caridina sp blue i geus i have about 20-30 of each.
plants:
Vesicularia montagnei, Taxiphyllum alternans, Peacock Moss,
Fontinalis antipyretica, Taxiphyllum barbieri , Vesicularia reticulata,
Vesicularia ferriei, mini moss, glosso, rotola rotundifolia, rotola rotundifolia "colerata", rotola walichii, hemianthus calictroides, hemianthus micranthenum, riccia, cladophora aegrophila, elocharis acucilaris.

please ecscuce my spelling, thanks:)
 
Howdy ja,

reading the link, you wanted to "bust" me ("this bugger"?!). Very kind of you, and very mature. Not gonna work, though :grinno:

This is MFK, Monsterfishkeepers. Due to the fish we keep, we have to deal with a high bioload in our tanks, inevitably resulting in high nitrate and phosphate levels. Keeping the fish we keep, most of us want to reduce these levels (reminder: That's what this thread is about). Therefore, they are not the limiting factors on plant growth. Since you have no fish but only shrimp in your tank, your bioload is different and much lower ... Lund, who started this thread, is for sure not interested in adding more nitrates....

Feel free to start a thread on what people's phosphate and nitrate levels are in this forum and see if they want to add more....

HarleyK

ja__ said:
That moderator may have an area of expertise in fishkeeping but knows absolutely nothing about aquatic plants
You make me cry.
pssssst: Check out my gallery ...
 
okay that was not the ecsakt meaning of what i meant sorry :redface: (english is not my language, hoping too learn more though)

and you know what you are right. Sorry please forgive me :)
 
Let's forget about it

:cheers:


HarleyK
 
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