Does puffer fish skin release ttx toxin?
- Thread starter Fat Homer
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The subject line says, "Does puffer fish skin release ttx toxin?". The answer still is no, they do not release any toxins.
Interesting to know that about the frogs. I was thinking of getting a CB one some time later in the year to do a planted tank for, so nice to know don't feed him ants!! lol.
One thing I don't know is how long it takes for ttx to deplete in captivity. Got loads of examples of how long it takes for a CB fish to become toxic when given ttx! I keep finding articles which say "over time" but none of them seem to specify how much time. If anyone's done some digging on that one, please share!
This question of releasing or leaching ttx really got me interested, so done some more research and found something interesting.
"On the other hand, when toxic pufferfish encounter enemies, their bodies swell to two or three times their usual size and TTX is excreted from their skin to repel the enemies"
They found that out by electrocuting puffers to see what they'd do!! Science is gross sometimes... One of the fish cited is T. nigroviridis correct me if I'm wrong, but that's GSPs isn't it? Apparently they have "txx bearing secretory cells" in their skin. But ttx isn't water soluble, whatever that means. Can't work out if that means the poison stays whole and doesn't deplete, or if it means the poison depletes. Anyone know which? I'm thinking soluble = dissolving, so they must mean it stays whole?
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525488/#b41-md6020220)
Does look like the answer to whether or not skin releases ttx is "sometimes". What I can't seem to find is whether or not it's like the newts, and happens over time without the fish being pissed off by something in particular. Defo appears to be more that just cowfish that do it.
Used google translate on a page with another article on, and apparently there is a type of puffer, I think, called a "river war chariot"...!! Not too sure what they were trying to translate there, the whole article came out as gobbledegook, but that bit made me laugh...
Pufferfish poison is sooo fascinating! It's amazing to think just how deadly these cute little swimmy things can be if you stick 'em in a frying pan!
One thing I don't know is how long it takes for ttx to deplete in captivity. Got loads of examples of how long it takes for a CB fish to become toxic when given ttx! I keep finding articles which say "over time" but none of them seem to specify how much time. If anyone's done some digging on that one, please share!
This question of releasing or leaching ttx really got me interested, so done some more research and found something interesting.
"On the other hand, when toxic pufferfish encounter enemies, their bodies swell to two or three times their usual size and TTX is excreted from their skin to repel the enemies"
They found that out by electrocuting puffers to see what they'd do!! Science is gross sometimes... One of the fish cited is T. nigroviridis correct me if I'm wrong, but that's GSPs isn't it? Apparently they have "txx bearing secretory cells" in their skin. But ttx isn't water soluble, whatever that means. Can't work out if that means the poison stays whole and doesn't deplete, or if it means the poison depletes. Anyone know which? I'm thinking soluble = dissolving, so they must mean it stays whole?
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525488/#b41-md6020220)
Does look like the answer to whether or not skin releases ttx is "sometimes". What I can't seem to find is whether or not it's like the newts, and happens over time without the fish being pissed off by something in particular. Defo appears to be more that just cowfish that do it.
Used google translate on a page with another article on, and apparently there is a type of puffer, I think, called a "river war chariot"...!! Not too sure what they were trying to translate there, the whole article came out as gobbledegook, but that bit made me laugh...
Pufferfish poison is sooo fascinating! It's amazing to think just how deadly these cute little swimmy things can be if you stick 'em in a frying pan!
What was the other language? You should post it maybe some one can read it?
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Fascinating stuff. I know that it took a lot longer for people to understand that it was specifically ants (and the formic acid, I believe...) that were used to create the toxin in Dendrobates than it took for them to figure out that once you kept them in captivity for a while, they lost their toxicity. In other words, people kept and bred Dart Frogs for many years and figured out that somehow, they lost their potency, before the actual biological mechanism was understood.
Might be the same case with puffers except I can see the challenge being that instead of studying, say, a one square meter of jungle floor habitat like you could with Dendrobates, imagine the challenges of following around an adult puffer in its habitat, watching what it eats and how much if it, then trying to put the thing in captivity and trying to selectively remove one dietary component at a time, and somehow figuring out a way to "test" when toxicity levels abate.
Maybe I should just lick my puffer and see if I gt high or if I just drop dead on the spot?
Might be the same case with puffers except I can see the challenge being that instead of studying, say, a one square meter of jungle floor habitat like you could with Dendrobates, imagine the challenges of following around an adult puffer in its habitat, watching what it eats and how much if it, then trying to put the thing in captivity and trying to selectively remove one dietary component at a time, and somehow figuring out a way to "test" when toxicity levels abate.
Maybe I should just lick my puffer and see if I gt high or if I just drop dead on the spot?
This statement has been on my mind. I would venture a guess that the TTX is water-insoluble for the reason that the puffer wants it to stay ON the skin, rather than to to potentially dilute out and lose efficacy in a water environment. Check out this article...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16959367
...the authors mention the resistance by garter snakes to some forms of neurotoxin. Toads are a staple item of garter snakes and secrete Bufotoxin as a defense against predators. Now, toads occur in moist or wet environments and ergo, "incidences of predation" probably occur mostly there with garter snakes. I can see how a toad would NOT want its toxin to be water soluble and thus, potentially wiped or washed away, during an incidence of potential predation by a garter snake. Possibly puffers are the same?
Just thinking out loud.
You were correct water insoluble means that the toxin stays together as a whole and doesn't mix into the water, what they are saying is that the poison is still active in the water so for this puffer its a defense mech.
Secretory cell is a cell that can release a substance, that it makes inside to the outside of the cell body. These cells within the puffer release the poison from specialized cells embedded in the tissue to the ocean water to kill or harm whatever startled it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretion
Definitely been interesting finding out all this kind of new info on puffers... But i wonder if only brackish / marine species of puffers secrete through their skins or if even freshwater puffers can too... Since in the example they mentioned what i think is a GSP?
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Palembang's puffer is one of the ones mentioned, and that's FW. But all the others listed are SW.
Although;
"...brackish waters of the Okinawa and Amami Islands [36], and in Thai/Bangladeshi/Cambodian brackish water and freshwater pufferfish, the skin has the highest toxicity [27–29,37]."
The general consensus seems to be BW and FW puffs tend to have more ttx in their skin compared to SW ones. Whether or not having it in the skin also equals being able to release it as a defense mechanism, I don't know. Palembang's is the only FW one actually mentioned as having secretory cells.
Amazing to think they can release it at all. I always thought they couldn't, but turns out that's not the case. Looks like they only release it when they puff, so I guess it's sort of a secondary defense. Puff's gotta be pretty pissed off before he'll go spraying poison everywhere! lol. Suppose that's a bit comforting!
Bit of random info to add to the collection...takifugu obscurus are edible and takifugu ocellatus aren't according to the japanese guidelines. Yet the two look almost identical, obscurus is a bit prettier, with lines as well as spots, occelatus just has spots. But shhh! Don't tell Mushroom! He thinks he's the prettiest puffer!! lol
Anyone able to shed any light on poison depleting over time? If I remember rightly, I found a figure of 40 days for non-toxic fish to become toxic, just don't know what it would be in reverse. Whether it's also only 40 days for toxic fish to become non-toxic.
Although;
"...brackish waters of the Okinawa and Amami Islands [36], and in Thai/Bangladeshi/Cambodian brackish water and freshwater pufferfish, the skin has the highest toxicity [27–29,37]."
The general consensus seems to be BW and FW puffs tend to have more ttx in their skin compared to SW ones. Whether or not having it in the skin also equals being able to release it as a defense mechanism, I don't know. Palembang's is the only FW one actually mentioned as having secretory cells.
Amazing to think they can release it at all. I always thought they couldn't, but turns out that's not the case. Looks like they only release it when they puff, so I guess it's sort of a secondary defense. Puff's gotta be pretty pissed off before he'll go spraying poison everywhere! lol. Suppose that's a bit comforting!
Bit of random info to add to the collection...takifugu obscurus are edible and takifugu ocellatus aren't according to the japanese guidelines. Yet the two look almost identical, obscurus is a bit prettier, with lines as well as spots, occelatus just has spots. But shhh! Don't tell Mushroom! He thinks he's the prettiest puffer!! lol
Anyone able to shed any light on poison depleting over time? If I remember rightly, I found a figure of 40 days for non-toxic fish to become toxic, just don't know what it would be in reverse. Whether it's also only 40 days for toxic fish to become non-toxic.
