Does Regional Variability play a HUGE roll in evolutionary development?

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Miles;1793346; said:
I just want to better understand why each Potamotrygon (and others) are the way they are and if the regionality/rivers play a big roll in their physical appearance, while at the same time they could all be distinctly different species (while still sharing the same patterns)..

I would say that the short answer to your question is, yes, absolutely. Every organism on this planet adapts to it's specific environment. If an organism fails to adapt, it dies out. Given the length of time that stingrays have survived on this planet, I would say they are fairly highly evolved creatures that continue to evolve. This is a great subject, and I'm sure that you will have much more to add to it.
 
Well I kind of look at it like I do Canines..

It didn't take the human race long to steadily re-create all dogs as we know them.. French Bulldogs, for example, a monstrosity in their own right.

But take 'patterns' from dog breeds.. such as the 'Brindle' pattern. You can find the brindle pattern on a wide array of variations of dogs, from Pits, Boxers, Danes, Terriers, etc.. The Brindle pattern was obviously a desired breeding trait, at the control of the breeders themselves..

But say you compare Brindle = Motoro.. Perhaps the Motoro pattern we see in EVERY region is an adaptation by the strongest fit to survive. Just as the dog breeder chose the brindle pattern for color and style, the stronger stingray species may have involuntarily chosen to morph into a Motoro type pattern for whatever type of benefit or purpose ray pattern provide..

Just some thoughts..

It could also be that Motoros are so vastly dominant in their own right, with their amazing will to adapt and interbreed, that they have basically 'forced' their genetics into each species over time through seasonal flooding and widespread travel.. ?
 
Miles;1793526; said:
It could also be that Motoros are so vastly dominant in their own right, with their amazing will to adapt and interbreed, that they have basically 'forced' their genetics into each species over time through seasonal flooding and widespread travel.. ?

This is a very distinct probability. Dominant traits will continue to trump less effective attributes in any evolutionary process. As organisms evolve, traits that were once necessary for their being are often lost in favor of better suited traits.
 
A lot to process here. Going to post #1 though, why do you state that the generic "Motoro" pattern is best? Because of its frequency of occurrence? I would think, being ambush predators and sticking to the bottom of the river, the patterns of the retic, orbignyi, humerosa are the most camoflaged?


Are "our" rays truly different species or just subspecies? They can interbreed, has anyone successfully bred the hybrid offspring? If offspring are viable, Miles theory is very plausible about physical location dictating morphology and on a evolutionary timescale the genus is just begining to diversify, but there are apparently still subspecies that are crossing the physical barriers.
 
There is, no doubt, a correlation between geography and evolution. Take the origins for the theory of natural selection (galapagos) and you've got your proof. Stingrays have been around longer than the fish we consider to be ancient fish (like bichirs, lungfish, knifefish, arowanas, bowfins, etc.), because the bony fish actually evolved after cartilaginous fish such as stingrays and sharks, thus there's been a lot of time put into their evolution, and I imagine that in the past, there have been significant periods of time (centuries to millenia) that have isolated groups of rays from one another (polar ice cap expansion, severe south american drought), and thus caused variations through a few dozen generations of inbreeding. Then when they were reunited from normal rains returning, the species were still able to hybridize, but had gained much different characteristics. It's all a very interesting topic, and I think it can all be traced back to major geographical and geological events in our history.

Question: The last Ice Age occurred approximately 600,000 years ago, and water levels were at extreme lows (and thus, many rivers were dried out). For any stingrays that survived the extreme cold and low water levels (the ones near the equator), could the transitions of this Ice Age have been a new beginning in Stingray evolution and diversification(and many species of freshwater fish)?

(Sorry for the novel... interesting topic)
 
Also by you saying that where they come from also dictates which species they get along with best for instance the long tailed species all get along with each other (for the most part), but the motoro who is in the other direction does not get along with them.
 
tank125;1793567; said:
A lot to process here. Going to post #1 though, why do you state that the generic "Motoro" pattern is best? Because of its frequency of occurrence? I would think, being ambush predators and sticking to the bottom of the river, the patterns of the retic, orbignyi, humerosa are the most camoflaged?

I agree with the thought that to humans, the 'reticulated' type patterns would be the most camouflaged.. but humans might not think the same as the animals.. Perhaps it has something to do with what type of fish predate on rays, where the rays hang out most often, etc etc..

Are "our" rays truly different species or just subspecies? They can interbreed, has anyone successfully bred the hybrid offspring? If offspring are viable, Miles theory is very plausible about physical location dictating morphology and on a evolutionary timescale the genus is just begining to diversify, but there are apparently still subspecies that are crossing the physical barriers.

I am pretty sure they have interbred many generations of hybridized rays.. that is how they get the 'SP' ray..


Just like Dogs, it is all 1 species.. and just like dogs, they could all potentially interbreed with some outside help.. but what Potamotrygon is most closely related to the original freshwater elasmobranch?

Such as Wolves are today, I wonder which subspecies of Potamotrygon is the most 'ancient' amongst them?
 
Miles,
I just joined MFK yesterday so I am a bit new here. I really know nothing about stingrays, but I do know a bit about evolutionary biology and your post caught my attention for that reason.

I'm a little unsure what you meant by the following:
"It's also interesting conversation to think that all Motoros are different species (based on teeth, denticles, body shape, etc) but have actually evolved their patterns to best fit their ecosystem - ie: The common motoro pattern has the most benefit of all stingray patterns, so every species eventually will morph into a Motoro.."

I was wondering what you meant by that last line. I am not sure anybody that has commented so far really has a grasp on evolution, but evolutionary change occurs at the level of the species, not the individual... and it doesn't necessarily take millions or even a hundred thousand years. Evolution can occur in a matter of weeks. (Watch fruit flies in a jar in a college genetics lab.)

Mutations are the agents of evolutionary change. When a new mutation occurs that improves an individual's reproductive fitness, it becomes established in the population. New mutations (which are adaptive) can become established quickly depending on selective forces, but there is no set direction for evolution. That is why I'm a bit troubled by your statement regarding one pattern being the most beneficial and all the others will eventually become this. That is flawed logic and is evolutionarily deterministic.

Just remember, fitness (or being"most fit" or "fittest) has to do with selective forces working at the time that the individual carrying particular traits is in existence and those selective forces are always changing. Evolutionary processes have no set endpoint and "fittest" only applies to a present set of selective forces working on a particular individual.
 
stingray man;1793804; said:
Also by you saying that where they come from also dictates which species they get along with best for instance the long tailed species all get along with each other (for the most part), but the motoro who is in the other direction does not get along with them.


Well yes and no, for the most part they could live together in peace in the wild but when they are constantly more agressive toward feeding (tank wise) it causes problems
 
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