Dual sump irrigation questions

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Richies^Ghost

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
May 15, 2010
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Sydney
Hello peoples,

I'm making a dual sump - two seperated containers, as dictated by the cabinet beneath my tank. I will be using 60 litre (16gal) Sulo bins, similar to below:

twowheeled2b.jpg



The first bin will be a traditional type sump, to convert ammonia to nitrate etc. and the second will house the pump and a deep sand bed for denitrification, as explained here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

I have several questions regards the plumbing:

1) My plans are to link the two using a pipe to syphon water from the first to the second, without the use of a pump. I understand that the pipe will need to be rather wide (I estimate 50mm - 2inch, or else combination of smaller pipes) to keep up with the flow needed. The end in the second bin will be lower than the first and the water levels will be kept so that should the power go off, the two bins water levels will even out without breaking the syphon.

1.1) Will this plan work? Once the pump starts running (it will be in the second bin) and the water lowers, will the syphon effect continue without problems? I will be using the DIY overflows from this site, to get water to from the tank to the first bin.

1.2) The two bins will be on the same level - the ends of the pipe will be about 2 inches in height, will the end in the second bin being lower than the first. If I raise the pipe about 30cm (12inches) above the first bin, so that is runs diagonally to the second, will this improve the flow? The water will need to travel vertically this 30cm - will this conteract any improvements?

The second set of questions relates to the return from the pump to the tank. I will be using a 5800litre p/h pump (1545 gal) that I would like to use to agitate the surface with a spray bar, as well as created a current within the tank. The spray bar would extend 120cm (4ft) along the tank, and 30cm (1ft) down into the tank.

2.1) What would be the optimal diameter and number of holes to ensure flow isn't impeded, whilst giving a good amount of force to properly aggitate the surface as well as provide current within the tank? How do I work this out for myself if I want to change things?

2.2) More holes in the vertical pipe, less holes in the horizontal = faster current, less airation?

2.3) Is there some rule of thumb for the amount of airation in a tank?

2.4) Is it worth using an air pump with a spray bar, if the spray bar does a good job of aggitating the surface? I have an air pump that does 800litres (211gal) per hour, but I'd rather save power by using the return from the sump pump to agitate the surface. In the event of a power outtage, I'm concerned that the oxygen in the tank will be used up too quickly - it's moderately stocked now, but will be heavily stocked in future. My next project is a battery supply for this air pump, which starts the pump when power goes out.

Thanks for reading my ramblings. Any thoughts on any of it would be greatly appreciated :D
 
I would do something like the pic below if you want to setup a dual sump setup.

Have your overflow flow down to the bottom of the 1st container, then stack all the filter media you want to use (granted this isn't going to work as a standard trickle filter more like a large bought filter)

then at the top of the 1st container have 1x or 2x horizontal pipes across to the 2nd container with the DSB.

I'd then plum in an external pump on the 2nd container using the fitting to set the water height of the running system, but also leaving enough room @ the top for if a power goes out, the water still comming from the tank is just enough to fill the 2nd container and not overflow making a nice mess to clean up.



sump-help.jpg
 
RS2000;4143910; said:
then at the top of the 1st container have 1x or 2x horizontal pipes across to the 2nd container with the DSB.
Click to expand...

Ha! I was so busy thinking outside the box (or the back of the cabinet) that I overlooked the obvious - drilling large holes in the bins and the cabinet walls so that I could run a pipe to connect them. This seems like a rather elegent solution, apart from having to hard plumb the two bins together - any suggestions for preventing leaks?

Ideally (for the sake of convenience) the DSB inlet could be periodically removed so that I can take out the bin, and replace the sand. Apparently this is needed at least once a year, to remove excess sulfer and heavy metals - I was thinking about putting a tap on the bottom though, and letting it drain out, however I don't know if that's sufficient.

Thanks for taking the effort, especially with the picture - much respect :)
 
re Leaks, just make sure you use the bulkhead fittings (something like pic below) on the holes drilled into the bins
SFTF.jpg


As for being able to pull the 2nd bin out, you can overcome thing fairly easily as well, use a barrel union type fitting on the pipes between sumps 1 and 2 and on the return pump.

imresize.php


That way when u want to pull it out to clean, simply close off the ball valve on the over flow unit going to sump one, and leave the pump on (while watchin the water level) to drain down the water below the level of the hoz pipes.

Then turn off the pump (be sure to have a one way valve on the discharge side of the pump so not to have back flow) and unscrew the unions and remove
 
Thanks again :)

reticonline.com.au is my new discovery - it seems 10% cheaper than other aussie online stores and 30% cheaper than bunnings etc (with wider variety) so that's a bit of alright :)

I haven't been able to find bulkheads for sale online in Aus, but the U.S prices lead me to believe they would be expensive at 50mm! Thankfully, http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_bulkheads.php has a article on DIY bulkheads (well named URL that) which seems promising.

Something I wondering about the flow of the horizontal pipe from Bin1 to Bin2 is whether it should slope downwards, with the end in Bin1 being higher than Bin2 - would this improve flow rates?

Regards my second set of questions, I'm thinking that an easy way to tell how many holes should go in the spray pipe would be to find out how many times I can drill a hole into a section of wood the same size as the return hose, given a drill bit size.

I'm just wondering if I should add or remove a few holes on the spray pipe - adding seems like it would remove pressure from the pump and fittings, removing seems like the water would come out more forcefully.

Also, if anyone cares, my original post I was thinking 3.78 litres = 1 gallon - apparently it's 4.54:1 which makes my life easier on a couple of flow issues :)
 
Richies^Ghost bunnings actually sell the hanson bulkhead fittings :), find the section that sells the clear hose and hose clamps etc, and they are in there. Last time i got some i think there were bout $20 each (been a while though so dont quote me on that)

as for the angled pipe personally i wouldn't really bother with it. simply because it will overflow just like a wier as a horazontal, and it means less water to drain out if u wish to remove the 2nd bin.

heres a drawing of what I had built to use as 2 sumps in my marine tank i'm building atm

04.jpg


Water will flow into section 1 of sump 1 threw my baffles then out hoz throught the 2x 50mm bulkheads into sump 2 where it will do the same thing then threw the single 50mm bulkhead connected to an external pump.

as for the spray bar, its all personal preferance, my last setup i just got 1' pvc pipe heated he end and squashed it to make a long flat slit, that jetted water out, and the fish loved the spread and pressure of it for them to swim in.

Hope that helps some

David
 
Thanks David, I know the area - I got some 50mm clear pipes from there, one of which I'm planning to use for the joining pipe. I'm going back this weekend so I will see if I can find them, along with suitable hose clamps.

The bins are slightly angled downwards, though they have a bit of give, so hopefully the bulkheads can be horizontal enough to prevent problems when they're joined by a pipe. The flexibility of the pipe I'm using should help though.

There's a product called 'UniSeal' which seems promising too, so I might just use it and save some headache.

http://www.justwatersavers.com.au/epages/jws.sf?ObjectPath=/Shops/justwatersavers/Products/%22Uniseal%2050mm%22

I found good infor for spraybars in this thread http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196630 - long story short, I'm going to guesstimate, drill, try, then make the holes larger if needed. A good idea seems to be decrease hole size by half after the halfway mark to the end of the spray bar, to maintain even pressure.

It's all coming together nicely, thanks for your great advice.

regards,
Richard
 
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