Dwarf Caiman Tankmates

Oompa Loompa

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Hi guys,

Don't worry I'm not planning on getting a caiman ;) (yet). JK, for a long long time.

What have people successfully kept dwarves with? I've seen things like turtles, vine snakes in the land section, pacu, large catfish, rays, etc in with dwarf caimans.

What if you did something like @LepisoeteusPlatyrhinhus 's build, except the ponds were custom made by placing down foam blocks, then rebar, then concrete, then fiberglass, then paint. There could still be 2 ponds, they could just be bigger (his enclosure is 13x10 with 2 feet of depth for the ponds). This way you could still have the amazing land section, but you would be able to attempt to keep fish, as well as get an underwater/side view of the caimans. I would stock it with:

-1 cuvier's dwarf caiman
-Green anoles, bahamas anoles, house geckos, and long tailed lizards running around freely and breeding
-An emerald tree boa
-Smaller stuff like pill bugs, crickets, dubia roaches, and, if the enclosure was sealed well enough, some flies (not a lot though)
-Green and grey tree frogs
-Some kind of fish, I'd keep it separate for each pond; the ponds couldn't be too big or the land section wouldn't be big enough to support the lizards; what would you all do for fish? I'm struggling to think of anything, pretty much anything would be an expensive feeder in the water
-A belize slider
-Something for the land; a pair of green basilisks, or even just one would complete an awesome, (almost) Amazon biotope
Anything else?What would you do differently?
 
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Frank Castle

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We recommend keeping any of those things in their own tank. Success rate is much higher that way. While it may sound interesting it's not a good idea keeping any of those together except the smaller lizards. What state are you in?
 

Oompa Loompa

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Well I live in Maryland now and I'm pretty sure there's no laws, but I'm moving back to NC after I'm finished with school and there are zero laws concerning reptiles and exotics (only federal laws apply, and a few for native small mammals) in NC so they're perfectly legal there.

Has nobody kept turtles and caimans together? It seems like a large-ish (10") turtle wouldn't be a problem when kept with a caiman that gets 3.5-4' long. I also wouldn't see the emerald tree boa being a problem, but it's an expensive risk to take - what issues could arise from that, since ETBs are mostly stationary and will rarely leave their branch of choice? I could definitely see the basilisk being a problem though, that's not the best of ideas.
 

Frank Castle

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Well I live in Maryland now and I'm pretty sure there's no laws, but I'm moving back to NC after I'm finished with school and there are zero laws concerning reptiles and exotics (only federal laws apply, and a few for native small mammals) in NC so they're perfectly legal there.

Has nobody kept turtles and caimans together? It seems like a large-ish (10") turtle wouldn't be a problem when kept with a caiman that gets 3.5-4' long. I also wouldn't see the emerald tree boa being a problem, but it's an expensive risk to take - what issues could arise from that, since ETBs are mostly stationary and will rarely leave their branch of choice? I could definitely see the basilisk being a problem though, that's not the best of ideas.
1.) I think this entire thought is a disaster waiting to happen, honestly.
2.) It's illegal to own American Alligators in NC, so I assume Crocodilians in general are not legal. The only state which Alligators naturally occur that doesn't have laws against keeping them is Alabama. All the others - TX, LA, OK, AR, NC, SC, FL, GA, MI - outlawed it.
You may want to double-check the legislature.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Hmm. never saw the law on reptiles. I actually never found any laws. Where did you find this law, I would like to see if there are any others on reptiles that I did not know of.

Not trying to be rude or argumentative, but why do you think it is a disaster waiting to happen? You keep saying it is one but without any reason. These are all from the same habitat, and all but the house gecko and longtail lizard are from central and south america. Many public zoos also keep turtles and smaller caimans together. The only one I have not seen is the emerald tree boa in with anything else really, I have seen it with a whites tree frog once but I'm not sure how that went over.

Note that I wouldn't be worried about the lizards surviving long, just that they breed and the babies eventually be picked off by the caiman.
 

Thekid

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Hmm. never saw the law on reptiles. I actually never found any laws. Where did you find this law, I would like to see if there are any others on reptiles that I did not know of.

Not trying to be rude or argumentative, but why do you think it is a disaster waiting to happen? You keep saying it is one but without any reason. These are all from the same habitat, and all but the house gecko and longtail lizard are from central and south america. Many public zoos also keep turtles and smaller caimans together. The only one I have not seen is the emerald tree boa in with anything else really, I have seen it with a whites tree frog once but I'm not sure how that went over.

Note that I wouldn't be worried about the lizards surviving long, just that they breed and the babies eventually be picked off by the caiman.
North Carolina

Category: N

Summary of Law: A county or city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the possession of dangerous animals. In addition, an entry permit from the State Veterinarian is required before importing into the state a skunk, fox, raccoon, ringtail, bobcat, North and South American felines, coyote marten, and brushtail possum.

Citation: N.C. SESS. LAWS §153A-131 and §160A-187; N.C. ADMIN. CODE tit. 2, r. 52B.0212

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_animals_summary.php
 

Oompa Loompa

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North Carolina

Category: N

Summary of Law: A county or city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the possession of dangerous animals. In addition, an entry permit from the State Veterinarian is required before importing into the state a skunk, fox, raccoon, ringtail, bobcat, North and South American felines, coyote marten, and brushtail possum.

Citation: N.C. SESS. LAWS §153A-131 and §160A-187; N.C. ADMIN. CODE tit. 2, r. 52B.0212

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_animals_summary.php
That is what I followed. I guess it's better to ask what their policy on keeping one is. Although any dog could be considered dangerous. Any cat could contract a disease and be considered dangerous. So there's no real definition of a dangerous animal
If it's not explicitly stated that the animal is illegal, which it isn't, you could likely keep one in the state. I mean, don't run a mass-scale alligator farm in your backyard, but if you keep a little dwarf caiman in your house it's not like you're going to have SWAT come in.

True or no?
 

Frank Castle

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It's a bad idea for a number of reasons, too many to list, but for starters, Emeralds are one of the hardest snakes to keep alive in captivity, it's not worth the risk-and-reward factor since there's almost 100% chance the caiman will eat it.............or vice versa. The caiman will eat everything and while turtle are the #1 candidate for keeping with crocodilians, they are PREY in the wild for caimans and they can also choke to death on splintered shell. Adversely, the turtle can also bite chunks out of the caiman. The lizards will get eaten obviously .....all of them. The frogs will get eaten as well and the fish will likely be eaten as well.

The only thing you will have left in the end is a caiman and a turtle if you're lucky. What's even worse than that, disease, parasites, pathogens.......anything has a disease, it will give it to the rest of them.

What's wrong with simply keeping all those animals but giving their own enclosures that you can customize more to individual preference, and most importantly, so they are safe?
 

Oompa Loompa

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It's a bad idea for a number of reasons, too many to list, but for starters, Emeralds are one of the hardest snakes to keep alive in captivity, it's not worth the risk-and-reward factor since there's almost 100% chance the caiman will eat it.............or vice versa. The caiman will eat everything and while turtle are the #1 candidate for keeping with crocodilians, they are PREY in the wild for caimans and they can also choke to death on splintered shell. Adversely, the turtle can also bite chunks out of the caiman. The lizards will get eaten obviously .....all of them. The frogs will get eaten as well and the fish will likely be eaten as well.

The only thing you will have left in the end is a caiman and a turtle if you're lucky. What's even worse than that, disease, parasites, pathogens.......anything has a disease, it will give it to the rest of them.

What's wrong with simply keeping all those animals but giving their own enclosures that you can customize more to individual preference, and most importantly, so they are safe?
How often do ETBs come off of their preferred "perch"? They seem to be very sedentary snakes, although that may just be in smaller cages - when kept in a 13x10 enclosure, that might be a different outcome. If it ever came down, something would fight, I agree with that - but what are the odds the snake comes down?
I agree with you that this snake may not be the best choice as there are multiple factors that make it incompatible with the other reptiles - the main one being temperature differences, that would end up being a huge risk with a snake like this.

A totally arboreal, cheaper snake would be a better option. You would need something tolerant of warm, humid conditions, something very fast, and something cheap. As well as hardy. The rough green snake fits this description, although there's a risk involved with keeping it since it's not from the same region as the caiman. Yeah, the frogs and lizards are for feeders, you'd probably establish them for a few months in the enclosure first so they have a chance to form colonies and bonded groups in order to keep up with the rate at which the caiman eats them.

I'm going to research the caiman and turtle scenario. It seems unlikely that the turtle and caiman would not be able to coexist peacefully. If I'm not mistaken, it's like keeping sharks with other fish - they're only going to attach other stuff if it's bothering them, or if it's hungry - keep it well fed and don't choose something that is territorially aggressive and you'll be fine (most of the time). Again, not trying to be argumentative or rude.

Keeping them in their own enclosures is cool, but you'd have to admit if this did work out (the snake is a big risk with this), it'd be awesome to have your own mini jungle. A thriving ecosystem is way cooler than a few tanks with a single random animal in it.
 

Oompa Loompa

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Here are three sources I found about keeping turtles with caimans:

"It is not uncommon to hear reports of turtles and even fish nibbling away at a caiman's tail or toes, especially when they don't have sufficient food themselves. However, some owners have reported that caimans get along well with turtles, as long as the turtle is too big to fit inside the caiman's jaws. An adult caiman is quite capable of crushing a smaller turtle's shell." - posted on www.crocodilian.com

"I've seen dwar caimen kept and housed with Large Belize and Nic Sliders... I've seen crocs housed with large Podoc turtles, alligators with sliders and cooters... Aslong as they're bigger than the croc I dont think you should have any issues." - posted by member Shells-N-Scales on MFK

"Enclosure mates can include but not limited to other caimans of similar size(if there is sufficient space) turtles(painted, sliders etc but no aggressive turtles such as snappers) and sometimes fish. These are likely to be eaten so don't put your favorite fish in with them. Smaller fish have a good chance at being left alone when the caiman is larger. " - posted by member Lepisosteus Platyrhinchus on MFK (note that LP owns Claudia, a female dwarf caiman and has a 126 page build thread for her enclosure, check it out it's awesome)
 
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