electric blue jack demsey is a hybrid?????

[l3gend504]

pshh tryin to use all that fancy talk to persuade us, it aint no dam hybrid !

 

[koliveira]

did you guys red the article? Or see the source? ACA also believes them to be hybrid. Iused to believe they were line breed as well. I now know otherwise.

Kory

 

[koliveira]

Hybrids would not display classic Mendeleevean reproduction patterns, as ejds have been demonstrated to do. It's pretty clearly a recessive gene issue. And, as previosly stated, Rapps had the DNA verified. I don't know what the deal is with that site, but the science doesn't bear out the claims.

This is not exactly true. There are hybrids that do not have any offspring that show traits to there original ancestors. Such as GM flowerhorn. They breed true to what the parent looks like without throw backs. There are also other types that do the same

I am not trying to upset anyone with this info. I keep ejbd's myself and do like them. I have many hybrids and moderate on a site dedicated to hybrids.

 

[rmcder]

This is not exactly true. There are hybrids that do not have any offspring that show traits to there original ancestors. Such as GM flowerhorn. They breed true to what the parent looks like without throw backs. There are also other types that do the same

I am not trying to upset anyone with this info. I keep ejbd's myself and do like them. I have many hybrids and moderate on a site dedicated to hybrids.

I understand that hybrids can breed true, but show me a case where crossing the hybrid with its ancestor produces offspring identical to the ancestor and when you breed those offspring you produce exactly 25% hybrid. Doesn't happen, and it has been observed to happen with ebjd and regular jd.

When you breed a trimac with a flowerhorn do you get 100% offspring that look like trimac? And when the offspring breed, do you get exactly 25% flowerhorn and 75% trimac? Unless someone can show me how a hybrid can exactly mimic a recessive trait in a single organism, or how a hybrid can have identical DNA to a single ancestor there's no way that I can accept that ebjds are hybrids.

There was also a reference to line breeding in a previous message. A genetic mutation is not the same thing as line breeding; line breeding takes a specific species and breeds for enhancement/exaggeration of existing characteristics. A genetic mutation produces a sudden change in characteristics; it isn't "bred into" the organism.

Heck, I don't care if a beautiful fish is a hybrid or not, but as someone trained as a scientist, I need facts that match up with conclusions, and I don't see that here. All the hard evidence I've seen points to a recessive trait and not a hybridized organism.

 

[koliveira]

Why couldn't a hybrid carry a recessive and a dominant trait? The creator says they are a hybrid. Have you ever seen anybody isolate these recessive genes from a group of normal JD's and create ejbds? All breeding stock came originally from one source.

I understand what you are saying the 3;3;3;1 ratio of a punnets square but it is irelevant. I have drawn up many pedigrees and punnets squares. I do understand the concept. Think about if two adult albino's are homozygous for the recessive gene. 100% of the offspring will be albino. So in theory if a hybrids traits are all recessive and there mates are also having only homozygousrecessive traits, they will no longer show any traits of original cross breed fish

Can you show me DNA evidence that proves they are a pure breed? I do not think they have mapped the whole genome for octofasciatus and any closely realeted ancestors would be very hard to tell apart at this point.

Line breeding is occuring. They are breeding these fish to carry the gene. To enhance characteristics for the breeding of EJBD. You do not think they take the ones with the best blue and try and get him to pass on the superior blue recessive trait? They are taking and selecting the nicest males and females for the project.

genetic mutations lead to speciation in the wild and I am well aware of how this works.

If the ACA will not allow them to be shown because they believe they are a hybrid are they all wrong?

 

[koliveira]

I did not read your first post right. I see that you a agree that hybrids can breed true. pardon me. I would like to get to the bottom of this though and have an answer with out a shadow of a doubt.

One way would be if someone was able to isolate blue gene from normal breeding stock withought using a EBJD male. That would prove once and for all they are not. I do thank you for the good debate Rmcder!

 

[rmcder]

Why couldn't a hybrid carry a recessive and a dominant trait? The creator says they are a hybrid. Have you ever seen anybody isolate these recessive genes from a group of normal JD's and create ejbds?

Yes, you just have to know where to look for these "normal" jds carrying the recessive gene. Take the 100% recessive blue-gene jds (bgjd) from an ebjd x jd. They are ALL "normal" in every way; totally indistinguishable from any other jd and they carry the recessive gene. Breed them together and you get 25% ebjd (double recessive), 50% bgjd (single recessive, all "normal" otherwise), and 25% normal jd (no recessive). Breed the 100% bgjd offspring with ebjd (wihch is the usual way things are done), and you get 50% ebjd and 50% bgjd. This is EXACTLY what you would expect to see if you're dealing with a recessive trait.

All breeding stock came originally from one source.

Anything can carry recessive and dominant traits. The key is how those traits are expressed in breeding. As to the creator saying they're hybrid, that isn't what he said orginally (at least according to what I've been told). My understanding was that he observed some blue fry mixed in with normal fry.

I understand what you are saying the 3;3;3;1 ratio of a punnets square but it is irelevant.
How can it be irrelevant? It indicates whether you are dealing with dominant or recessive traits, or whether you are dealing with something totally different.

I have drawn up many pedigrees and punnets squares. I do understand the concept. Think about if two adult albino's are homozygous for the recessive gene. 100% of the offspring will be albino.

Right, as is the case with ebjds; ebjd x ebjd yields 100% ebjd. But if the albinos are bred with a "normal", you will get 100% normal looking fish, not a hodgepodge of intermediate forms.

So in theory if a hybrids traits are all recessive and there mates are also having only homozygousrecessive traits, they will no longer show any traits of original cross breed fish

But if it IS a collection of recessive genes, and nothing else, breeding them back with the original fish should produce offspring indistinguishable from the original fish. And those offspring, when bred, should produce 75% fish indistinguishable from the original fish, and 25% with the recessive trait. If that doesn't happen, then you're not dealing with a recessive trait. There's no getting around that. A hybrid should have a mix of different genes that make it what it is, not simply a set of recessive genes.

Can you show me DNA evidence that proves they are a pure breed? I do not think they have mapped the whole genome for octofasciatus and any closely realeted ancestors would be very hard to tell apart at this point.

My understanding is that Jeff Rapps has this DNA evidence.

Line breeding is occuring. They are breeding these fish to carry the gene. To enhance characteristics for the breeding of EJBD. You do not think they take the ones with the best blue and try and get him to pass on the superior blue recessive trait? They are taking and selecting the nicest males and females for the project.

You don't have to linebreed to "carry the gene". Anything you're linebreeding already HAS the gene. You can't make the gene "stronger", or make it appear where it didn't exist. What you CAN do is exaggerate the desireable traits by only breeding the best individuals. That said, ebjds are NOT bred with other ebjds. They are ALWAYS bred to regular jds, so this isn't a classic case of linebreeding at all.

genetic mutations lead to speciation in the wild and I am well aware of how this works.

If the ACA will not allow them to be shown because they believe they are a hybrid are they all wrong?

Are you suggesting there is no chance that they are? I also have no idea what their reasoning might be. Ebjds are not found in nature, and perhaps THAT is the reasoning. One possible explanation, of course, being that they are hybrids. Another possibility, however, is that the recessive trait brings with it problems that prevent it from surviving. Some breeders have indicated that the female will cull the ebjds, presumeably because they look different. Others speculate that they are out-competed by their "normal" siblings. Again, I don't KNOW one way or another, but, I've never heard of a hybrid organism that can mimic a recessive trait when breeding. I offered a parallel with flowerhorn and trimac. If you breed them, are 100% of the offspring indistinguishable from trimacs? And if you breed the offspring, do you get 25% flowerhorn and 75% trimac? Are there ANY hybrids that can mimic this kind of result? Ebjds DO this EVERY time you breed them (and since you ALWAYS breed ebjd with normal jd, this breeding takes place a LOT)!

 

[rmcder]

I did not read your first post right. I see that you a agree that hybrids can breed true. pardon me. I would like to get to the bottom of this though and have an answer with out a shadow of a doubt.

One way would be if someone was able to isolate blue gene from normal breeding stock withought using a EBJD male. That would prove once and for all they are not. I do thank you for the good debate Rmcder!

Well, you can't really get the "blue gene" without either a mutation or interaction with something that has it, so your requirements make it impossible to do. You're attempting to define "normal" as something that doesn't have the gene, and then asking to collect those that HAVE the gene. Obviously that can't be done. So why not go to where you KNOW there are jds which are TOTALLY indistinguishable from "normal", therefore ALSO normal, but carry the gene? BGJDs cannot be identified from any other kind of "normal" jd. They look the same, act the same, etc. They are, by any objective external criteria, "normal". They WILL produce ebjds when bred together, and they WILL do that in the proper percentages to indicate a recessive gene. I can't imagine how a hybrid can mimic that result. So those who are so sure about this hybrid ebjd issue, SHOW me where any hybrid can breed in the same fashion with the same results - EVERY time. As ebjds do EVERY time.

We've got lots of hybrids out there, let's try it out. Anyone have texacons or firecons? Breed them back with either species of the original cross. Do you get ALL offspring looking exactly the same as the original fish? If you cross those offspring, do you get 25% hybrids and 75% original looking?

 

[koliveira]

One other thing I thought of that makes your arguement more sound is this.

If to people have sickle cell and they breed they create homozygous offspring that can not survive.

So I take it that heterozygous offspring only can survive. A ejbd and and an ejbd breed together and have same problem. This makes my arguement less sound when I think of te genetics side of it.

About the line breeding though. They still are being line breed because they are selecting ones with longer fins brighter colors and so on. They also already have good stock of bgjd that carry the gene and select for characteristics as well. Thats why I say line breed.


I do understand your trimac fh comparrison. Same idea as gregory Medells experimention with the peas.
Kory

 

[WolfFisho1]

They are hybrids guys. Here is some info from original suppplier of the strain and a link below.





http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/blue_dempsey2.htm

there is a lot of debate about it! whether or not it is a hybrid or naturaly occuring/color morph!

here is a website explaining it more in depth!

Introduction- http://bluejax.co.uk/fof.aspx

Color Morph- http://bluejax.co.uk/colourmorph.aspx

Hybrid- http://bluejax.co.uk/hybridfish.aspx