Established tank, low ph No kh

[Wideglide04]

They may be seasonal but checkout the Wetspot.

Thanks. They may be easy for most but I've been to 5 locals within 40 miles no rams. Wont order anything either lol. I think wife wants GBR for looks so I'll probably order 4-6 juvies if I find good breeder.

 

[tlindsey]

Man we love the apistos but, after reading up on em I'm so not into my fish killing my other fish lol. Ik with cichlids its always a risk but I prefer to minimize it if possible. I hate waste

Yeah had a pair of Apistos Orange Flash and the female was very aggressive that's why I stated don't add Rams with them. In a large aquarium it may work. Although small Apistogramma are territorial and need space.

 

[Wideglide04]

Yeah had a pair of Apistos Orange Flash and the female was very aggressive that's why I stated don't add Rams with them. I'm a large aquarium it may work. Although small Apistogramma are territorial and need space.

Would a pair of apistos tolerate a school of tetras in 40b? If so where to find a mated pair? Or would I do the same and order a few juvies and wait on the pair?

 

[tlindsey]

Really up to you to use crushed coral or not. I used it because my tank was originally setup as a mbuna tank, and they like really high pH. Parrots are pretty adaptable as is and only existing in captive settings makes them accepting of a wide range of pH.
I’d go with the advice of tlindsey over mine regarding the coral tbh - he’s been doing this longer than I’ve been alive…

I've learned things from you even though I've been keeping fish.

 

[tlindsey]

Would a pair of apistos tolerate a school of tetras in 40b? If so where to find a mated pair? Or would I do the same and order a few juvies and wait on the pair?

Small schooling Tetra like the Cardinal or Neon Tetra would be my choice. I kept my pair with Browntail Pencil fish.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sorry- this will be long. better TMI than TLI , imo.

I would be a bit concerned by the lack of KH. This is what holds up pH. It also contributes to conductivity/TDS. The problem with raising KH is it can also result in harder water and/or pH.

Hardening Your Water (Raising GH and/or KH)
The following measurements are approximate; use a test kit to verify you've achieved the intended results. Note that if your water is extremely soft to begin with (1 degree KH or less), you may get a drastic change in pH as the buffer is added.

To raise both GH and KH simultaneously, add calcium carbonate (CaCO3). 1/2 teaspoon per 100 liters of water will increase both the KH and GH by about 1-2 dH. Alternatively, add some sea shells, coral, limestone, marble chips, etc. to your filter.

To raise the KH without raising the GH, add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), commonly known as baking soda. 1/2 teaspoon per 100 Liters raises the KH by about 1 dH. Sodium bicarbonate drives the pH towards an equilibrium value of 8.2.

Raising and Lowering pH
One can raise or lower pH by adding chemicals. Because of buffering, however, the process is difficult to get right. Increasing or decreasing the pH (in a stable way) actually involves changing the KH. The most common approach is to add a buffer (in the previous section) whose equilibrium holds the pH at the desired value.

Muriatic (hydrochloric) acid can be used to reduce pH. Note that the exact quantity needed depends on the water's buffering capacity. In effect, you add enough acid to use up all the buffering capacity. Once this has been done, decreasing the pH is easy. However, it should be noted that the resultant lower-pH water has much less KH buffering than it did before, making it more susceptible to pH swings when (for instance) nitrate levels rise. Warning: It goes without saying that acids are VERY dangerous! Do not use this approach unless you know what you are doing, and you should treat the water BEFORE adding it to the aquarium.

Products such as ``pH-Down'' are often based on a phosphoric acid buffer. Phosphoric acid tends to keep the pH at roughly 6.5, depending on how much you use. Unfortunately, use of phosphoric acid has the BIG side effect of raising the phosphate level in your tank, stimulating algae growth. It is difficult to control algae growth in a tank with elevated phosphate levels. The only advantage over hydrochloric acid is that pH will be somewhat better buffered at its lower value.

One safe way to lower pH WITHOUT adjusting KH is to bubble CO2 (carbon dioxide) through the tank. The CO2 dissolves in water, and some of it forms carbonic acid. The formation of acid lowers the pH. Of course, in order for this approach to be practical, a steady source of CO2 bubbles (e.g. a CO2 tank) is needed to hold the pH in place. As soon as the CO2 is gone, the pH bounces back to its previous value. The high cost of a CO2 injection system precludes its use as a pH lowering technique in most aquariums (though see the PLANT FAQ for inexpensive do-it-yourself alternatives). CO2 injection systems are highly popular in heavily-planted tanks, because the additional CO2 stimulates plant growth

from https://fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html

I run a tea stained tank at 6.0 and TDS in the 60 ppm range for altum angels. My tap is 7.0 and TDS in the low 80d ppm. I use RO/DI water to keep things in check. I use catappa leaves, alder cones, rooibos tea (soley for stainign and health properties) and muriatic acid to keep the water stained and the pH low. The RO/DI helps to keep it soft and lowers the KH which helps hold the pH down. I do not have live plants in this tank as the staining changes the light. And there is a lack of minerals etc. that the plants need. All of which can contribute to conductivity/TDS. Even adding the muriatic acid can raise the TDS even as it lowers the pH.

Acid water is also a bit tricky in terms of the nitrifying bacteria. The cycle does not stop at 6.0 and lower. However, at that level essentially all of the ammonia is in the form of ammonium (NH4). This is used less efficiently by some of the normal bacteria and by other strains that colonize which can use NH4 more efficiently. So it is important in an acid water tank not to let the pH rise too much (upwards of 6.50) as this can cause an ammonia spike.

However, from your explanation is sounds to me like the greater risk is for there to be a pH crash. The nitrifying bacteria use the carbonates/bicarbonates that mostly make up KH in tanks. Also, the cycle itself is acidic. I would be most concerned in your tanks that the pH could crash if you missed one or more water changes.

You do not want a crushed coral (CC) substrate for sure. This is calcium carbonate and the calcium raises hardness while the carbonates raise the KH. That amount of CC is simply too much. However, what you might consider is having a bag of CC in the filter. As a substrate it will make major alterations to the water parameters besides raising the KH. It will make the water noticeably harder and the pH clearly higher. However, putting a small amount into a bag in the filter should raise the kH but will not be sufficient to raise the pH by more than .1 or .2 and, more likely, not at all.

The CC dissolves in acid water. The more acid the water, the faster it will dissolve. So it will need to be replenished with time. It will also take a number of days to show an effect. I would suggest you start with between 3/4 of a cup of CC. Test the KH and pH when you add it and then daily after that. You should see some change in one or both readings within 2 weeks. You are looking to determine if you want to use more or less CC as the base amount.

Also, it is important to use your water changes to keep the tank parameters in the desired range. The goal is to avoid the tank parameters from bouncing around. I do know that fish that thrive in acid waters can handle a big drop in PH in a short period of time. I have seen a 1.0 drop in pH in a tank from the mid 6s to the mid 5s done in under five minutes and the fish (altums and a few other fish) never seemed to notice. I have repeated this myself a couple of times when needed. I keep rummy nose tetras and Hypancistrus contradens with my altums at 6.0. They too endured the 1.0 rapid pH drop just fine.

What I do try to avoid are big shifts in conductivity/TDS. This the fish may have problems handling. especially if they are raised. I pre-batch my weekly changing water for this tank. I change 20 gals. in a 55 gal. It holds more like 45 gals due to substrate and decor, so I am changing at least 40%.

Finally, to have any clue of the parameters of both the tank and the changing water I use this Bluelab Guardian Monitor I got mine when it was about $70 cheaper.


I keep rummy nose tetras and Hypancistrus contradens with my Altums at 6.0. They too endured the 1.0 rapid pH drop just fine.

 

[Wideglide04]

Sorry- this will be long. better TMI than TLI , imo.

I would be a bit concerned by the lack of KH. This is what holds up pH. It also contributes to conductivity/TDS. The problem with raising KH is it can also result in harder water and/or pH.


from https://fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html

I run a tea stained tank at 6.0 and TDS in the 60 ppm range for altum angels. My tap is 7.0 and TDS in the low 80d ppm. I use RO/DI water to keep things in check. I use catappa leaves, alder cones, rooibos tea (soley for stainign and health properties) and muriatic acid to keep the water stained and the pH low. The RO/DI helps to keep it soft and lowers the KH which helps hold the pH down. I do not have live plants in this tank as the staining changes the light. And there is a lack of minerals etc. that the plants need. All of which can contribute to conductivity/TDS. Even adding the muriatic acid can raise the TDS even as it lowers the pH.

Acid water is also a bit tricky in terms of the nitrifying bacteria. The cycle does not stop at 6.0 and lower. However, at that level essentially all of the ammonia is in the form of ammonium (NH4). This is used less efficiently by some of the normal bacteria and by other strains that colonize which can use NH4 more efficiently. So it is important in an acid water tank not to let the pH rise too much (upwards of 6.50) as this can cause an ammonia spike.

However, from your explanation is sounds to me like the greater risk is for there to be a pH crash. The nitrifying bacteria use the carbonates/bicarbonates that mostly make up KH in tanks. Also, the cycle itself is acidic. I would be most concerned in your tanks that the pH could crash if you missed one or more water changes.

You do not want a crushed coral (CC) substrate for sure. This is calcium carbonate and the calcium raises hardness while the carbonates raise the KH. That amount of CC is simply too much. However, what you might consider is having a bag of CC in the filter. As a substrate it will make major alterations to the water parameters besides raising the KH. It will make the water noticeably harder and the pH clearly higher. However, putting a small amount into a bag in the filter should raise the kH but will not be sufficient to raise the pH by more than .1 or .2 and, more likely, not at all.

The CC dissolves in acid water. The more acid the water, the faster it will dissolve. So it will need to be replenished with time. It will also take a number of days to show an effect. I would suggest you start with between 3/4 of a cup of CC. Test the KH and pH when you add it and then daily after that. You should see some change in one or both readings within 2 weeks. You are looking to determine if you want to use more or less CC as the base amount.

Also, it is important to use your water changes to keep the tank parameters in the desired range. The goal is to avoid the tank parameters from bouncing around. I do know that fish that thrive in acid waters can handle a big drop in PH in a short period of time. I have seen a 1.0 drop in pH in a tank from the mid 6s to the mid 5s done in under five minutes and the fish (altums and a few other fish) never seemed to notice. I have repeated this myself a couple of times when needed. I keep rummy nose tetras and Hypancistrus contradens with my altums at 6.0. They too endured the 1.0 rapid pH drop just fine.

What I do try to avoid are big shifts in conductivity/TDS. This the fish may have problems handling. especially if they are raised. I pre-batch my weekly changing water for this tank. I change 20 gals. in a 55 gal. It holds more like 45 gals due to substrate and decor, so I am changing at least 40%.

Finally, to have any clue of the parameters of both the tank and the changing water I use this Bluelab Guardian Monitor I got mine when it was about $70 cheaper.


I keep rummy nose tetras and Hypancistrus contradens with my Altums at 6.0. They too endured the 1.0 rapid pH drop just fine.

Ok, so I'll probably try the cc in the 72 when I set it up. Test the water for a 4-6 weeks to see if I can get it right. Thanks for the info

 

[Wideglide04]

I figured I would continue this here instead of starting a new thread.
Would my bio wheel be enuff to jump start my cycle or just use the sponge as well? I have the same hob for both.
The ph on new tank is 6.6-6.8 is that a problem if the other tank is 6-6.4? I dont want to shock them, thanks

 

[Deadeye]

What media you have should help to cycle. May not be perfect but it will do something.
The jump shouldn’t kill anything, but I would just acclimate them to be safe. As simple as keeping the fish in a bucket while slowly pouring tank water into the bucket.

 

[Wideglide04]

What media you have should help to cycle. May not be perfect but it will do something.
The jump shouldn’t kill anything, but I would just acclimate them to be safe. As simple as keeping the fish in a bucket while slowly pouring tank water into the bucket.

Ok, I figured but haven't heard anyone using bio wheels and that's just easiest for me.
The ph thing actually worried me. Thanks for the info