I think he is the only guy in the universe that dosnt have a clue.
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F1, F2, F3... Does it matter to you?
- Thread starter vamptrev
- Start date
I think he is the only guy in the universe that dosnt have a clue.
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I think the reason for that is the price of import. For one small gar to get here in mn from mexico was $400-500 just for shipping. By the time you add that to the $300-400 fish from Brazil, add in fees and profit margins and you are there. With captive fish you don't have that. Yeah there is more work, feeding and what have you with captive fish. The fact that you take that shipping and import off the top and people expect the price to reflect that. Then they pay the shipping after the fact and so many of them cry because of the costs of shipping.
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There is a guy here that wants $1400 for classic Leos. He has no idea on the history of them and they have chewed up discs. I tried explaining to him about how the market has come down on them and his ray is worth about $600. Then he told me he got them for $500 and lost a few along the way and wanted to break even. That was his reasoning, I told him good luck with that.
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dont own rays anymore but to me its either WC or CB. more important is the specific rays traits. id be curious what certain line bred fish like bettas F number would be, and little arguement can be made for the beauty of a black orchid crowntail compared to a wild type betta. unless i was setting up a serious breeding program id prefer a talented breeders judgement creating a true show piece over natural selection. nevermind all the other factors IMO quality breeder> wc
With selective breeding you can isolate desired traits without in breeding. Ex. I have a large spot Leo. If I breed it with another large spot Leo there is a high chance of large spot pups. If I do that with two sets of breeding large spot rays non related. Then the large spot rays from each set of parents I crossbreed the pups from them would have even higher chances of being large spot. Do that a few hundred times without cross breeding and you have your line bred large spot Leos. You could breed one male from one of the original pair with a female pup from the other pair to add more mixes into it. Never cross breeding.
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^right which is why i think a skilled breeder can produce far better results than the wild would. still as they are selectively bred doesnt "fresh" genes need to be introduced at some point unless you start with an enormous group? sorry breeding isnt my forte and my lingo is probably horrible but i think we may be arguing the same point. either way i think the breeders skill would make the decision for me. done properly i dont believe nature would(certainly could) produce the same results breeding for traits could
You could. But if you have as little as two males and 3 females. You could take a male from male 1 and female 1, then breed it to females 2,3 or any females that have been produced by male 2 and females 2, 3. You could mix and match from that. You would just have to start with high quality breeders. Down the line you could add a new female to the mix or get a new male. The bigger the group the more options you get just by adding one more male you can increase options by the hundreds down the line.
Now I have not been saying that I don't like rays down the line. More that they should be cheaper down the line because of the difference in prices to get them.
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By keeping records said breeder can easily "prove" his/her fish aren't inbred... and to put it simply.. Yes, I would def buy from you and other reputable breeders over wild stock as a preference. my personal ethical stance is just different then some others as to how important it is to not have inbred animals... atm f1-f2-f3 like pointed out isn't going to be "inbred" but when you start getting 10-20yrs of captive breeding your going to see some lines like you do in other pet industrys of lines that might "look" fabulous but have genetic defects from people not keeping records their breeding grandparents to grandkids w/ no genetic "filler"
imho it's to early yet to worry about genetic defects of severity, but its is deffinately a concern of keeping pure leo's for example from being hybridized from a CB standpoint... the rays coming out of asia for example... they aren't inbred in all likelyhood... but they are deffinately a mixed bag of genetics. Which is fine... but if someone is going to hold to "Pure bred" then they need to track the lines to be able to prove it in 20yrs. imho
By you reputable guys setting up the dynamics now it will save the ray hobby imho a lot of suffering later. and would make sourcing new bloodline for species in captivity vs having to bring in wild stock infinitely easier for breeders as a whole. It would increase the values of CB vs WC rays undoubatble ( look at what a purebred dogs vs mutt costs no matter how nice the mutt looks)
tbh idk what a dna sample would cost... but if it even tacked on an extra 100$ to an already 800$ ray imho its money well spent if as a potential owner/breeder in the future.
I just think we can learn a lot about the past mistakes other people have made in the "domestication process" which is obviously evolving in the ray hobby.
I have seen captive bred thousand island I think him berry has a male now
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