F1, F2, F3... Does it matter to you?

[Tor-Eriik]

as I understand it in biology the definition of 'P' or 'F-0" is any 2 unrelated rays.
F1 is their offspring.
to get F2 you have to breed two rays from the same litter.
If you take 2 unrelated F1 pups then you essentially have 2 unrelated pups, which start again as 'P' ( parental generation, aka F0)

 

[sbuse]

as I understand it in biology the definition of 'P' or 'F-0" is any 2 unrelated rays.
F1 is their offspring.
to get F2 you have to breed two rays from the same litter.
If you take 2 unrelated F1 pups then you essentially have 2 unrelated pups, which start again as 'P' ( parental generation, aka F0)

That may be the biological way(I dont know) but the fish world has adopted a different definition. Fish world seems to be f0=wild, f1= wild parents, f2 captive parents(f1), f3= second gen(f2) captive parents and so on. Then after you have no clue it just becomes "tank raised".

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[Silent Bob]

I always thought the number meant how many generations it was away from wild.
0 always = WC
1 always = 1st generation away from WC
2 always = 2nd generation away from WC
3 always = 3rd generation away from WC

Did not think that 2 F2 anything from different parents would start back 1.

Doesnt make sense.


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[Dovii_Dan]

First spawn from wild and every spawn from that pair is -F1 to me also meaning tank raised ...captive bred whatever you want to call it

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[Miguel]

No.

In relation to no fish at all.

 

[sbuse]

First spawn from wild and every spawn from that pair is -F1 to me also meaning tank raised ...captive bred whatever you want to call it

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Yeah, I would agree with all being tank raised. From what I have experienced and had almost everyone around me say tanks raised is "only used if you don't know" it seems dumb to me.

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[dogofwar]

The concern about "inbred" fish seems to be based on the (false) premise that a couple of generations of breeding related fish (rays) like humans will result in high rates of deformation or other undesirable attributes... and that fish that are "closer to wild" will be free from undesirable attributes.

There's likely some "my fish is better than yours" douche-baggery thrown in as well.

Either way, the market (and associated prices) are ruled by what people are willing to pay... and there's always a part of the market that will pay a premium for "wild" fish.

A good number of the "wild" cichlids on the market are raised in ponds in Florida and sold for inflated prices to hobbyists who will argue to their last breath that anything other than wild fish are inbred trash... Everyone wins (and no wild fish were actually harmed in the process)!

Vamtrev - you sell high quality rays. Keep doing what you're doing!

Matt

 

[MonsterMinis]

The concern about "inbred" fish seems to be based on the (false) premise that a couple of generations of breeding related fish (rays) like humans will result in high rates of deformation or other undesirable attributes... and that fish that are "closer to wild" will be free from undesirable attributes.

There's likely some "my fish is better than yours" douche-baggery thrown in as well.

Either way, the market (and associated prices) are ruled by what people are willing to pay... and there's always a part of the market that will pay a premium for "wild" fish.

A good number of the "wild" cichlids on the market are raised in ponds in Florida and sold for inflated prices to hobbyists who will argue to their last breath that anything other than wild fish are inbred trash... Everyone wins (and no wild fish were actually harmed in the process)!

Vamtrev - you sell high quality rays. Keep doing what you're doing!

Matt

So you're implying the hundreds and in some case thousands of years of work cat, dog, horse, rabbit, pig, goats, sheep...... and now cichlid, angelfish, koi, Asian arrowana...ect breeders are all wrong?

"douche-baggery" isn't the word I'de use for it. Ethical is the word i'de use for not intentionally creating weakness in genetic lines of animals destined for breeding stock... If it was easy then people wouldn't be genetically altering stuff.. they would just be "selective breeding"

You ever seen the results of mixing 2 bloodlines that both carry the same negative recessive trait? in the end it isn't just about not breeding relatives.. the whole point is to build a strong genetic make-up and NOT see those double negatives that even in human genomes = instant death or "abominations" It has nothing to do with inbreeding but more to do with genetic mapping at a more core level... animal breeders look for more then just a healthy animal... they look for certain traits...

The only "false" premise is by anyone who thinks breeding from a single pair for multiple generations wouldn't = negative effects to the genetic make-up of a species. particular if said species is "uncommon"

and Matt you are talking about unethical people selling false goods... cichlids 20+yrs ago are nothing like what you see today outside Documented wild caughts.. and why is that documentation so important to those people????... because they can't find pure lines, because not enough people where smart enough to keep records to begin with.

 

[scott s]

By you reputable guys setting up the dynamics now it will save the ray hobby imho a lot of suffering later. and would make sourcing new bloodline for species in captivity vs having to bring in wild stock infinitely easier for breeders as a whole. It would increase the values of CB vs WC rays undoubatble ( look at what a purebred dogs vs mutt costs no matter how nice the mutt looks)

Not to open a can of worms, but to be honest, a pure bred dog is, in a nut shell, a cross bred mutt that has been line bred to retain certain desired traits...but I agree with what you are saying.
When it comes to rays, once certain hybrids (Leo/Pearl for example) have been line bred to the point that the desired traits/pattern can be maintained, these too may become a desired "breed".
Sorry for the derail...

 

[MonsterMinis]

Not to open a can of worms, but to be honest, a pure bred dog is, in a nut shell, a cross bred mutt that has been line bred to retain certain desired traits...but I agree with what you are saying.
When it comes to rays, once certain hybrids (Leo/Pearl for example) have been line bred to the point that the desired traits/pattern can be maintained, these too may become a desired "breed".
Sorry for the derail...

I don't see why its a can of worms... Your 100% accurate as well.. I guess its just hard to sit here and see people "not careing" that pure leos, motoros, hystrix, ect and much of what we see as "species" will vanish in the trade because of hybridizing and creating new "breeds".

Trev has some amazing Leo's .. not everyones cup of tea and he also has the leox's ... I'de bet good money his pure bred leos will be worth much more then his leox's even if they look nicer in 10yrs or less. because his aren't hybridized but bred back to leos.. some people don't care as long as it looks good.. but if you can back that w/ papers... viola.. the "pure bred"

and sorry if it's kinda a de-rail =/ not my intention on trying to explaine why F numbers are important...and imo worth more then a WC in some instances. maybe not today but in the future.