Fear mongering...clown loachs

[RD.]

From a previous discussion on the growth rates of CL's ....

Sex, genetics, social hierarchy, etc, determine growth rates among clown loaches, with every group typically having those that are smaller, and/or larger than the rest of the group - even if all raised from the same size, under the same conditions, eating the same quantity of food. I have kept CL's for many years, including in species only tanks, and this appears to be quite common.

Males tend to be smaller, and thinner, and often more colorful, than females. IME females are always the dominant fish, with the alpha female growing leaps & bounds larger, faster, compared to males. Not sure what growth rates are in the wild, vs captivity, but in the wild females as small as 5-6" can be ripe with eggs and ready to spawn, hence the reason for a ban in Indonesia on clown loaches 6" or over. The larger WC specimens that are seen in the hobby come from Sumatra where there is no size restriction.

BTW - I find that the alpha females tend to keep growing at a decent rate, up until 6-7", at which time it slows down. Probably because a lot of their energy after that size goes to producing eggs, at least once, if not twice a year. My females seem to be gravid on a regular basis.

 

[Yoimbrian]

i mean, there are 2 big differences that make me just fine with people getting them to deal with snails.

1) it will take a clown loach 10+ YEARS to outgrow a reasonable size tank that an average hobbyist can easily get (120 fatboy probably good?). It will take a red tailed catfish less than 10 months to accomplish that.

2) If you do happen to get a clown loach to that size, it is worth a FORTUNE. People pay hundreds of $$s for large clown loaches, and they sell instantly. You can't give away a red tailed catfish for free.

 

[RD.]

No one is saying that someone can't get CL's when they are small, and later sell them.

Who said that?


Emma's comment was an attempt at explaining why it is a poor reason, as clown loaches are not great in dealing with an outbreak of MTS, which is the typical problem snail in the hobby. It's called EDUCATION. Clown loaches require proper nutrition, just like any other fish, not just the odd snail that they may consume on the side. They also live a lot longer than most tropical fish kept in the hobby, and they eventually do get fairly large, much larger than what the idjits at most big box stores would have everyone believing.

Good for Emma, while the image posted by the OP is a very old one, I supported it back in the day, and still do now.

FYI - the average hobbyist owns a tank under 55 gallons.

 

[RD.]

Just to hopefully clear things up, that pic of Emma's fish, and the article that it was posted in, can be found in the following link. https://www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus

And while the author, Martin Thoene, is certainly not always 100% accurate in his articles regarding loaches, I can't really question what he posted in the above article.

What part of it would be considered fear mongering? That clown loaches are lousy at snail control, especially as they begin to mature, and gain size? That they are capable of living a long life, and potentially reaching large sizes as they mature?

When Martin wrote that article, and stated; "This is a wonderful loach, but too large for most hobbyist aquariums.", I believe he was referring to the average hobbyist, and average sized aquariums. Not monster fishkeepers. Directly after that he stated: "Allowed a minimum of 75 gallons or more, young Clown Loaches thrive in groups." Again, good advice.

 

[DrownedFishonFire]

RD.

Martin and actually Em got me thinking on DIY homemade food recipes as Em is the one that mentioned variety made her loaches more colorful. Forgot her screenname here if its the same Emma you are referring to. Making me pause a bit as you are correct on some of his articles however when reading up on YOUR links they were dead links to studies or references. Any chance of updating those as your articles are showing up and so is his on search engines.

Whats the biggest loach on record btw? 13"? Marge was 11.5? I do hope mine makes it to 20 years or more.


How many fish out there in the trade thats even bigger anyday?many Cichlids, Oscars/pbass, Plecos. Even pacus, . Plenty cat fish species are that big already within their 1st year or less. At the end of the day people still find clown loaches a big commodity.

Reason to get it because of snail control I agree is dumb suggestion 100% better options. Though on the flip side..... we know if they make it and transform future aquarists into good fishkeepers Im for it. Im going to think twice about it in the future as really you are correct. Its our responsibility to encourage people to think of the long term plans of upgrading when it comes to it do you have funds if not then sell them to other aquarists that has that tank space but dont want to grow them out. Its a win-win.

Pea Puffers is another bad bad suggestion on snail control. Nip nip goes the other fish fins. That actually happened to a friend in college days after I told him its a badddd idea ?

 

[RD.]

I'm not sure which links you are referring to, but the main issue is the edit function here only lasts 15 minutes I believe? Kind of difficult to go back and edit, unless someone from admin is involved.

Emma was one of the admin on LOL, and the owner of Marge. She owned the fish in the pic posted by the OP. Martin also wrote the article on telling the difference between different clown loach collection locations, which I later corrected in what is now a sticky in the loach section.

Clown Loaches - Kalimantan vs Sumatra

I was asked by the admin on another forum to put the following article together and thought that some of the members here might find it interesting. Unfortunately the only real info one can find on this subject on the net...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

The loaches in the first photo, from Kalimantan, were raised on 100% pellets. I have yet to see any more colorful than those specimens. IMO if you want very colorful clown loaches, make sure they are sourced from Borneo, not Sumatra, and go heavy on males, as they tend to typically be more colorful than females.

As far as age, and size, as stated in the past, I have seen CL's in the 14" range, and thick as a brick. They were on display for years in a LFS in Calgary AB. The owner was a former customer of mine, and when I enquired he told me that he got them at 10", and kept them for 15 years. So they only gained 4" or so, but thickened up tremendously. They were kept in a large display tank with an Asian aro, and ate a LOT of shrimp etc that the Aro missed. Most likely why they got so thick. He eventually sold them for $450 CAD per fish, there was 3, but I thijnk that he lost one around the same time - from? So I would assume at least 20+ yrs old, and approx. 14".

A friend of mine in town has some of my loaches from years past, along with his step dads, that are approx. 18 yrs old now, and in the 8-9" range. Maybe 10", they have never been taken out and measured, so just a good ballpark estimation. He has a large group, that looks to me to be heavy in males, which also explains why they have not reached the giant proportions that some 20 year old loaches get. His are more colorful, and more slender, than the large female that Emma owned.

 

[DrownedFishonFire]

Will let u know which links are dead when i go back and re-read up some of the stickied information. I think I have the borneo ones for the 2 inchers.

 

[MN_Rebel]

It is a scaremongering to me in my honest opinion. There are plenty of tankbusters that public needs to be aware of, not a clown loach...the clown loachs is the least of our worries...just saying ?‍

 

[RD.]

The only person in this discussion and/or in the article where the pic that you posted originated, using the term tankbuster, is you.

 

[ozwald]

I was sold clown loaches to clear a snail problem. Went home and read up on them and was shocked at how long they live more than the size. But they encouraged me to upgrade from the 10 gal guppy tank to a 55 gal and I've never looked back. Had a pack of 8 at one point, but a series of problems (including heater malfunction) means I have none left. Max size was 7 inches.