Feeding our centrals
- Thread starter HerCrenVie
- Start date
Thanks everyone for chiming in. So what you're saying is that the presence of soybean isn't nearly as bad as overfeeding, regardless of brand or whatever? And so should I stick with my Hikari Cichlid Bio-Gold+ for now? These are the fish in question, took these pictures a few minutes ago...
Honestly, ultimately my main question is this: what do I have to feed my fish to get them to this size and looking like this:
http://www.aquamojo.com/Motaguense/Moto-314b.jpg
Honestly, ultimately my main question is this: what do I have to feed my fish to get them to this size and looking like this:
http://www.aquamojo.com/Motaguense/Moto-314b.jpg
Thanks everyone for chiming in. So what you're saying is that the presence of soybean isn't nearly as bad as overfeeding, regardless of brand or whatever? And so should I stick with my Hikari Cichlid Bio-Gold+ for now? These are the fish in question, took these pictures a few minutes ago...
Honestly, ultimately my main question is this: what do I have to feed my fish to get them to this size and looking like this:
http://www.aquamojo.com/Motaguense/Moto-314b.jpg
Any descent pellet will grow nice attractive fish but NLS is the most balanced and best diet for any fish and will be the most likely to give your fish the best chance at a long healthy life.Just compare labels and the decision is pretty clear to me.
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Feeding your own cultured/tank raised live food to your predatory fish would be the best way to go in order to mimic their natural feeding habits if you are truly concerned, IMO. No fresh water cichlid is consuming whole salmon, halibut, krill, etc in their native waters. Raise your own livebearers, fresh water shrimp, crickets, and worms and you've got the means to simulate your fish's natural diet. If you want to stick to pellets though, I'd take a good look at Xtreme. Or if you have the money just feed Massivore/Sinking Carnivore pellets if you want to maximize the growth potential of your fish
Agreed. Overfeeding is a FAR greater problem than the brand that one chooses to feed their fish. Most of the more well known brands of commercial food on the market will get the job done, and keep most species in fairly good overall health. Nutrient wise are some better than others? Absolutely, no doubt in my mind, but that's a whole nuther discussion.
With regards to soybean meal - for the most part the problem with soybean meal is that it is terrestrial based plant matter, and like all terrestrial based plant matter in the *raw* form it contains a significant amount of anti-nutritional matter, such as trypsin inhibitors, saponins, phytoestrogens, glucinins, goitrogens, lectins, etc. Having said that, most if not all of these anti-nutritional factors can be greatly reduced (possibly even completely inactivated) via heat when extruding/processing the raw ingredients.
The same anti-nutitional matter can be found in uncooked green peas, as well as most other terrestrial based plant matter - it's not just soybeans. Which is why I have always recommended that one should NOT feed raw peas to their fish on a regular basis, just as in the case of soybeans - there are healthier alternatives for fish.
There are also better "soybean" alternatives, such as soybean isolate, and/or soybean concentrate as these forms of plant protein do not contain any of the anti-nutritional matter that is typically found in soybean meal. The problem is they are a LOT more expensive so most fish food manufacturers opt for the lower cost soybean meal.
Having said all that, generally speaking the presence of untreated terrestrial based plant matter normally results in anorexia, reduced growth and overall poor feed efficiency when used at high dietary concentrations. For review see NRC (1983), Hendricks & Bailey (1989) and Lovell (1989) More info in the following link:
http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/736.HTM
A lot of the problems associated with feeding soybean meal will largely depend on the source of that soybean meal, and how it has been processed prior to your fish consuming it.
If you are not seeing the types of health issues previously mentioned in your fish, chances are the quantity, or quality (as in how the food has been processed) is probably not an issue in the brand of food that you are currently feeding.
HTH
Agreed. Overfeeding is a FAR greater problem than the brand that one chooses to feed their fish. Most of the more well known brands of commercial food on the market will get the job done, and keep most species in fairly good overall health. Nutrient wise are some better than others? Absolutely, no doubt in my mind, but that's a whole nuther discussion.
With regards to soybean meal - for the most part the problem with soybean meal is that it is terrestrial based plant matter, and like all terrestrial based plant matter in the *raw* form it contains a significant amount of anti-nutritional matter, such as trypsin inhibitors, saponins, phytoestrogens, glucinins, goitrogens, lectins, etc. Having said that, most if not all of these anti-nutritional factors can be greatly reduced (possibly even completely inactivated) via heat when extruding/processing the raw ingredients.
The same anti-nutitional matter can be found in uncooked green peas, as well as most other terrestrial based plant matter - it's not just soybeans. Which is why I have always recommended that one should NOT feed raw peas to their fish on a regular basis, just as in the case of soybeans - there are healthier alternatives for fish.
There are also better "soybean" alternatives, such as soybean isolate, and/or soybean concentrate as these forms of plant protein do not contain any of the anti-nutritional matter that is typically found in soybean meal. The problem is they are a LOT more expensive so most fish food manufacturers opt for the lower cost soybean meal.
Having said all that, generally speaking the presence of untreated terrestrial based plant matter normally results in anorexia, reduced growth and overall poor feed efficiency when used at high dietary concentrations. For review see NRC (1983), Hendricks & Bailey (1989) and Lovell (1989) More info in the following link:
http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/736.HTM
A lot of the problems associated with feeding soybean meal will largely depend on the source of that soybean meal, and how it has been processed prior to your fish consuming it.
If you are not seeing the types of health issues previously mentioned in your fish, chances are the quantity, or quality (as in how the food has been processed) is probably not an issue in the brand of food that you are currently feeding.
HTH
Does that include things like zucchinis and fruits that are mainstay of lots of veggie eating fish in our aquariums?
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BTW - for those that missed this the first time around, the OP lives in Singapore & doesn't have access to many of the foods that some of you have mentioned. Manufacturers/vendors such a as Angelsplus, Xtreme etc are not APHIS approved, hence their products are not approved for use in most overseas countries. Even if the OP could get them imported in, the shipping cost would be cost-prohibitive, which is one of the main reasons why he/she is currently feeding an easily accessible brand in Singapore, such as Hikari.
I would also not recommend feeding Massivore as a daily staple to cichlids of any type, it's protein/fat (typical analysis 52/10) content is far too high for any fish over the fry stage, and unless quanity is carefully monitored the end result is going to be an obese fish, with excessive fat deposition in & around the organs - exactly what Matt, myself and others were previously referring to.
I would also not recommend feeding Massivore as a daily staple to cichlids of any type, it's protein/fat (typical analysis 52/10) content is far too high for any fish over the fry stage, and unless quanity is carefully monitored the end result is going to be an obese fish, with excessive fat deposition in & around the organs - exactly what Matt, myself and others were previously referring to.
To be honest, from a nutritional aspect the average hobbyist typically has no idea what the exact nutrient levels are of the various raw foods that they feed their fish, or how each species will assimilate those various nutrients. You can't simply feed a fish that in the wild is predominantly a frugivore, such as Heros efasciatus, slices of apples & oranges, and assume that this is in any way a more natural form of food for the fish, than a well balanced pellet. In the wild a frugivore will seek out the fruits & seeds that contain the highest level of protein/fat, not the ones that mostly consist of starch. Add to that the nutrient requirements of most species change as they mature, so what might be ideal for a fry/juvenile, could be (and often is) completely different compared to a mature individual.
The reality is, for the vast majority of ornamental species of fish no one (including myself) has the slightest clue what the optimum dietary requirements are, as the vast majority of these fish have never been studied long term with regards to dietary requirements. Most haven't been studied on even a short term basis. You might be able to mimic a fishes natural feeding behaviour by feeding live foods, but most hobbyists will never mimic the seasonal variations of a natural diet that take place in the wild. Raising your own live bearers, fresh water shrimp, crickets, and worms generally won't even come close to matching what a cichlid in the wild consumes on a regular basis. The nutrient profile of each foodstuff is dependent on what each of those foodstuffs in turn consumes, which in captivity is usually nothing remotely close to what those live fish, insects, crustaceans, nymphs & worms would consume in the wild.
This is why if one refers to the nutrient profile of say an earthworm, one can only ball park that data as the protein/fat/mineral content will be entirely based on the environment of where that worm originated, as in what that worm consumes on a regular basis.
So comparing terrestrial based plant matter, vegetables. fruits, etc on a whole is only a guessing game, as for the most part the only raw ingredients that have been closely evaluated by men of science over the past 100 years are those that are primarily grain based, and only involving species of fish that are raised for human consumption. And most of that data is based on short term feed trials, as most of those fish aren't destined to become family pets - they are destined for a barbecue.
