I was hoping you would come in and say something, and thank you for that. I think this post addresses all my concerns, thanks for explaining the soybean issue. In short, I should be more concerned with overfeeding than with ingredients, and hikari cichlid bio-gold+ is fine as a staple for most cichlids, but is not the optimum option? Will my fish get good colour, good body form and good health from eating this food long-term (I'm talking years)? More importantly for me, will they be able to achieve aesthetic standards like that of aquamojo's fish with this food?Agreed. Overfeeding is a FAR greater problem than the brand that one chooses to feed their fish. Most of the more well known brands of commercial food on the market will get the job done, and keep most species in fairly good overall health. Nutrient wise are some better than others? Absolutely, no doubt in my mind, but that's a whole nuther discussion.
With regards to soybean meal - for the most part the problem with soybean meal is that it is terrestrial based plant matter, and like all terrestrial based plant matter in the *raw* form it contains a significant amount of anti-nutritional matter, such as trypsin inhibitors, saponins, phytoestrogens, glucinins, goitrogens, lectins, etc. Having said that, most if not all of these anti-nutritional factors can be greatly reduced (possibly even completely inactivated) via heat when extruding/processing the raw ingredients.
The same anti-nutitional matter can be found in uncooked green peas, as well as most other terrestrial based plant matter - it's not just soybeans. Which is why I have always recommended that one should NOT feed raw peas to their fish on a regular basis, just as in the case of soybeans - there are healthier alternatives for fish.
There are also better "soybean" alternatives, such as soybean isolate, and/or soybean concentrate as these forms of plant protein do not contain any of the anti-nutritional matter that is typically found in soybean meal. The problem is they are a LOT more expensive so most fish food manufacturers opt for the lower cost soybean meal.
Having said all that, generally speaking the presence of untreated terrestrial based plant matter normally results in anorexia, reduced growth and overall poor feed efficiency when used at high dietary concentrations. For review see NRC (1983), Hendricks & Bailey (1989) and Lovell (1989) More info in the following link:
http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/736.HTM
A lot of the problems associated with feeding soybean meal will largely depend on the source of that soybean meal, and how it has been processed prior to your fish consuming it.
If you are not seeing the types of health issues previously mentioned in your fish, chances are the quantity, or quality (as in how the food has been processed) is probably not an issue in the brand of food that you are currently feeding.
HTH
Feeding our centrals
- Thread starter HerCrenVie
- Start date
Oh yes, one more thing. What of the use of monosodium glutamate in hikari's pellets? What effect does MSG have on fish health?
One last thing. Any idea what the "beneficial bacteria" in hikari bio-gold plus actually does for fish? Is it simply a marketing gimmick?
Just out of curiosity, what kind of effect does wheat flour have on fish? Its land based vegetation and not a water plant.
Rocksor ......... how much, and how often one should feed their fish is dependant on a number of factors, but the basic idea is similar to humans. Too many calories in, and not enough going out, equates to fatty deposits and over the long haul an unhealthy fish. I can't possibly tell from a photo exactly what amount, or how often to feed is ideal for someone else's set up & fish. My cichlid could be big & lazy, the next persons fish of the same species & size could be very aggro & hyper active. etc-etc
Personally I would be concerned with both, but in your case I don't believe that the amount or quality of soybean meal is going to have any serious negative health effects (short term or long term) to your fish. If this was soybean meal from some low cost, low quality commercial grade feed, I would be a lot more concerned about things such as anti-nutritional matter. Mo's fish look great not just because of the great care that he gives them, but perhaps most importantly their great genetics. How your fish will match up to his down the road is anyone's guess.
MSG is used as a flavour enhancer, more than likely to mask the taste of things like soybean meal. I have no idea what if any effect that it will have on any species of fish, nor does anyone else as no long term studies have ever taken place. As far as I know Hikari is the only fish food manufacturer that uses it in their food. Make of that what you will.
Hikari has stated that their beneficial bacteria (probiotic) is based on Bacillus subtilis spores.
You can read my comments on the subject of probiotics in fish food in the following past discussion.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...cs-in-fish-feed-and-Oscars-are-true-omnivores
It's use in commercial feed is that of a binding agent, it's not really there for its overall nutrient value. As long as one does not use massive amounts, carbohydrates such as wheat flour will not have any type of overall negative effect on fish. Some species of fish are simply more efficient at digesting & utilizing carbs than other species. As an example, a koi might be able to efficiently assimilate a fish food that contained as much as 30% carbohydrates, where an arowana might only be able to properly digest 10%.
Keep in mind that not ALL vegetable matter that is consumed by fish is of aquatic origin. Think of the floodplains created around the globe when the rainy season arrives. Lots & lots of terrestrial based vegetation gets consumed by fish in nature, and not all of it is highly digestible or easily assimilated by fish, either.
Many fish do not find the taste of terrestrial based plant matter very palatable, so that alone can have a very negative effect on overall growth as the fish will generally only eat enough to survive, and not enough to exceed the most basic nutrient requirements. This is exactly what salmon farmers found when attempting to increase soybean content in their feed. The fish would only eat so much, then shut it down. The end result was that overall growth would suffer. Perhaps they never thought of adding MSG.
Personally I would be concerned with both, but in your case I don't believe that the amount or quality of soybean meal is going to have any serious negative health effects (short term or long term) to your fish. If this was soybean meal from some low cost, low quality commercial grade feed, I would be a lot more concerned about things such as anti-nutritional matter. Mo's fish look great not just because of the great care that he gives them, but perhaps most importantly their great genetics. How your fish will match up to his down the road is anyone's guess.
MSG is used as a flavour enhancer, more than likely to mask the taste of things like soybean meal. I have no idea what if any effect that it will have on any species of fish, nor does anyone else as no long term studies have ever taken place. As far as I know Hikari is the only fish food manufacturer that uses it in their food. Make of that what you will.
Hikari has stated that their beneficial bacteria (probiotic) is based on Bacillus subtilis spores.
You can read my comments on the subject of probiotics in fish food in the following past discussion.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...cs-in-fish-feed-and-Oscars-are-true-omnivores
It's use in commercial feed is that of a binding agent, it's not really there for its overall nutrient value. As long as one does not use massive amounts, carbohydrates such as wheat flour will not have any type of overall negative effect on fish. Some species of fish are simply more efficient at digesting & utilizing carbs than other species. As an example, a koi might be able to efficiently assimilate a fish food that contained as much as 30% carbohydrates, where an arowana might only be able to properly digest 10%.
Keep in mind that not ALL vegetable matter that is consumed by fish is of aquatic origin. Think of the floodplains created around the globe when the rainy season arrives. Lots & lots of terrestrial based vegetation gets consumed by fish in nature, and not all of it is highly digestible or easily assimilated by fish, either.
Many fish do not find the taste of terrestrial based plant matter very palatable, so that alone can have a very negative effect on overall growth as the fish will generally only eat enough to survive, and not enough to exceed the most basic nutrient requirements. This is exactly what salmon farmers found when attempting to increase soybean content in their feed. The fish would only eat so much, then shut it down. The end result was that overall growth would suffer. Perhaps they never thought of adding MSG.
They make the fish golden brown, crunchy and delicious if mixed in with some spices. It's best to double dip with an egg wash.
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I was just wondering because I noticed both wheat flour and soybean meal were listed on this New Life Spectrum (Assuming thats the NLS I keep hearing about) http://www.kensfish.com/moreinfo/spectrum-medium-fish-formula.html I was looking into it after I seen people kept bringing up Soybean meal but then saw it was listed along with the wheat flour in the ingredients.
I was looking into maybey ordering some when I run out of Hakari Gold.
ecoli73, that sounds pretty close to how I cook trout and pike
I was looking into maybey ordering some when I run out of Hakari Gold.
ecoli73, that sounds pretty close to how I cook trout and pike
All other things being equal, how important is diet in terms of colour development? Let's assume for a moment that my fish are of the highest quality genetics (which they actually are, because they're F1 La Ceibas imported from a reputable breeder in the US).
And thank you again for everything else.
I started this thread to get a better understanding of the food I'm using and of fish nutrition in general and you have gone a long way in helping me with that.