Feeding problem with greedy warmouth sunfish
- Thread starter Betta132
- Start date
certainly seems like the new problem is nowhere near as bad as the old one : http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/need-urgent-help-warmouth-sunfish-cant-eat.657839/
Ok, so he's a year old and some change, less than half-grown, unsexed, eat FROZEN earthworms (?) and lives in a river system/state with a 9-10 month grow-season that has had fish spawning for at least a week or 2 now, probably. Sound about right? A.) he's just at that stage where he's gonna grow like crazy and eat like crazy ......these guys like most panfish/bass will hit adult size in 2 years and grow a bit slower after that for X-years.
Voracious feeding is to be expected this time of year whether male or female I suppose, bigger females can produce more eggs, and bigger males not only produce more spermatophore, but are also more desirable to females looking for a mate for that reason among others (bigger males better defenders too).
It is probably just doing what come naturally to the species according to the season TBH.....you have a WC-NA species, so it's likely to do some behaviors that you might not be used to seeing in CB fish based on instinct or even learned behaviors. I think plain and simple, this excessive feeding just comes from the fight to survive (being a wild "sunfish" is a life of avoiding predators and combating other sunfish), thrown on top of the fact that there was a brief period it wasn't eating at all and had to be treated for some type of pathogen.
I have seen in fish before that have had periods of fasting or sickness that kept them from feeding for awhile, once they finally do start eating again, they become ravenous like they've never eaten before.
If I were you, I'd relax.....I think you finally got him healthy and this is just his way of saying "Thank you". Healthy fish eat.....and eat.....and EAT. It's just what they do.
He sounds awesome, especially with that fish type as well; "warmouth sunfish". Pity I've never seen one, don't know if they're even available here in the UK
Yeah, this is more of a "might have to get my sunfish fat in order to feed other fish" thing than a "sunfish is starving to death" thing. Nowhere near as big a problem.
I'm not really concerned about him, I'm just trying to figure out how much food it's Ok to give him. Can I let him stuff himself to bulging in order to get the others fed, since he's gonna be growing a lot, or would that be bad for him in the long run?
He's eating krill, silversides, and bloodworms right now. I'm not sure if frozen earthworms are a thing, but I figure he'd be eating fish and shrimpy things in the wild, so whole small animals are probably a good idea.
On a semi-related note, when he gets big enough, can I give him a mouse? Not a live one, a pre-frozen, thawed one. Clearly I won't try to feed him nothing but mice, but would it be OK to give him one as a special treat? I know this is probably not a new thing for just about everyone on this site, but I like the idea of having a fish that can eat a mammal.
convict360
, I'm pretty sure they only live in North America, but you might be able to order a couple from somebody who sells fish for stocking ponds. They're like handsome oscars, but with bigger mouths and a bit less aggression. Minimum tank size for a single one is about 45g with big water changes, they aren't too active, and you can keep them with any fish that won't be eaten and are fine in cooler water. No chiller needed, goldfish temp is good. Actually, you could probably keep one in a big tank with a bunch of common goldfish if you were so inclined. They aren't too aggressive, though they are a little bit territorial with similar fish. If it comes anywhere near fitting in their mouth, though, they will engulf it. Mine just recently ate a huge Mexican molly that was actually a bit taller than his mouth opens, and I'm not certain how, but he did it.
I'm not really concerned about him, I'm just trying to figure out how much food it's Ok to give him. Can I let him stuff himself to bulging in order to get the others fed, since he's gonna be growing a lot, or would that be bad for him in the long run?
He's eating krill, silversides, and bloodworms right now. I'm not sure if frozen earthworms are a thing, but I figure he'd be eating fish and shrimpy things in the wild, so whole small animals are probably a good idea.
On a semi-related note, when he gets big enough, can I give him a mouse? Not a live one, a pre-frozen, thawed one. Clearly I won't try to feed him nothing but mice, but would it be OK to give him one as a special treat? I know this is probably not a new thing for just about everyone on this site, but I like the idea of having a fish that can eat a mammal.
convict360
, I'm pretty sure they only live in North America, but you might be able to order a couple from somebody who sells fish for stocking ponds. They're like handsome oscars, but with bigger mouths and a bit less aggression. Minimum tank size for a single one is about 45g with big water changes, they aren't too active, and you can keep them with any fish that won't be eaten and are fine in cooler water. No chiller needed, goldfish temp is good. Actually, you could probably keep one in a big tank with a bunch of common goldfish if you were so inclined. They aren't too aggressive, though they are a little bit territorial with similar fish. If it comes anywhere near fitting in their mouth, though, they will engulf it. Mine just recently ate a huge Mexican molly that was actually a bit taller than his mouth opens, and I'm not certain how, but he did it.
You can let him stuff himself at this stage because he is still in growth-spurts, but keep it to high-protein foods, with low or no fat or cholesterol. Rodents are high in cholesterol and CAN be given, but sparingly. Your best bet is to stick to Pinkies, even now...the tiny little 2-3 day-old pinkies are fine for him at 5" - they have no bones yet , the bones are like elastic still, and additionally lack of hair makes them easier to digest without all the excess waste afterwards beating on your filtration. Earthworms are high-protein, low fat and also it's quite easy to give him one slightly BIGGER than he can swallow and while he's busy chewing on that for the next 30 minutes, feed the other fish.....just purchase them from a bait store or Wal-mart or get them from clean wild areas that have no chemicals or pesticides used on the soil. I pull about 5-6 dozen out of my leaf-pile every week, it was the only way I got my Lima Shovelnose to eat, aside from filthy feeder-fish that I refuse to use for anything. Crickets are also a great choice and can be duster w/ ZooMed's Reptivite/Herptivite vitamin/mineral/calcium powder for reptiles to make their colors pop and give nutrients they normally don't have in aquaria. Mealworms and waxworms and butter worms all have high fat content, but the waxworms and butter worms are MUCH preferred over mealworms.Yeah, this is more of a "might have to get my sunfish fat in order to feed other fish" thing than a "sunfish is starving to death" thing. Nowhere near as big a problem.
I'm not really concerned about him, I'm just trying to figure out how much food it's Ok to give him. Can I let him stuff himself to bulging in order to get the others fed, since he's gonna be growing a lot, or would that be bad for him in the long run?
He's eating krill, silversides, and bloodworms right now. I'm not sure if frozen earthworms are a thing, but I figure he'd be eating fish and shrimpy things in the wild, so whole small animals are probably a good idea.
On a semi-related note, when he gets big enough, can I give him a mouse? Not a live one, a pre-frozen, thawed one. Clearly I won't try to feed him nothing but mice, but would it be OK to give him one as a special treat? I know this is probably not a new thing for just about everyone on this site, but I like the idea of having a fish that can eat a mammal.
Also, one more very important thing you may want to consider if you plan on keeping a Warmouth in a 45g tank :
" These fish range in size from 4 to 10 inches (10.2 to 25 cm), but can grow to over 12 inches (31 cm) in length, and weigh up to 2.25 pounds (1 kg). " Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmouth <---------
convict360
75g or at least a 65g sounds like a better choice
I was definitely thinking pinkie mice or at least a young one, and he's already digesting silversides that have skulls probably as big as a baby mouse's. I certainly won't be feeding them very often, probably just the once, but I'm assuming a wild warmouth might have a chance at a mouse if they were lucky.
I'll look into getting him some worms or crickets, or maybe some ghost shrimp for him to chase around. Or how about crayfish? My LFS sells feeder crays that are about 1.5" long, would that be a decent treat for him or would they run the risk of poking holes in things?
I tried distracting him by putting a silverside on the end of a string and dangling it in the tank. I was hoping he'd grab the end and pull, but he just engulfed the entire thing, and I had to pull on the string to get it out.
I also tried dumping a bunch of small food in to make it harder for him to stuff himself, but he chased the silvers away and grabbed all the food. Also a lot of sand. He seems to have sifted the sand out of his gills, but that's still probably not great for him.
So it looks like he'll be stuffing himself again. Where's the line, though? Somewhere between "definitely plump" and "about to bust"?
In other news, my silver dollars are apparently also wanting to breed, because they're doing this weird spinny dance-fight thing and sparring with each other. Fortunately, they don't seem too upset by the big fish that keeps chasing them away from food and then gulping it all down.
I'll look into getting him some worms or crickets, or maybe some ghost shrimp for him to chase around. Or how about crayfish? My LFS sells feeder crays that are about 1.5" long, would that be a decent treat for him or would they run the risk of poking holes in things?
I tried distracting him by putting a silverside on the end of a string and dangling it in the tank. I was hoping he'd grab the end and pull, but he just engulfed the entire thing, and I had to pull on the string to get it out.
I also tried dumping a bunch of small food in to make it harder for him to stuff himself, but he chased the silvers away and grabbed all the food. Also a lot of sand. He seems to have sifted the sand out of his gills, but that's still probably not great for him.
So it looks like he'll be stuffing himself again. Where's the line, though? Somewhere between "definitely plump" and "about to bust"?
In other news, my silver dollars are apparently also wanting to breed, because they're doing this weird spinny dance-fight thing and sparring with each other. Fortunately, they don't seem too upset by the big fish that keeps chasing them away from food and then gulping it all down.
I personally don't believe there is such a things as over-feeding a juvenile going through a Spring-induced growth spurt, especially with the history yours has. He will stop eating so much when he gets bigger and heavier....younger fish have fast metabolisms.....smaller frequent meals work better for a lot, but in your case, I would stick to one large feeding , daily......finishing w/ a large earthworm so you can have some time to feed the rest. Don't underestimate the usefulness/benefits of the earthworm
U can't get him to take pellets, huh? What about veggies? Quarter some Zucchini ro Cucumbers long-ways and rubberband them to a rock and sink them to the bottom of the tank....Silver Dollars will munch on that through out the day - and if the Warmouth is smart, he will learn by watching them - I do asparagus, also Romaine, Spinach, Broccoli. I bet the little pieces of a broccoli floret would be great for the SDs with their small mouths and weak bite-force
I'm sure I could get him to take some sort of pellet, but we can't have gluten in the house, and the one large gluten-free pellet I've found isn't to his taste. And I don't think he's made to eat veggies, I'm pretty sure that would be like trying to feed lettuce to a bullfrog. The dollars would probably appreciate that, though, and I doubt he'd steal their salad.
They actually don't have weak mouths. Dollars have sharp little teeth and nibble really fast. If they find a silverside piece, they snatch it up and run around the tank eating on it like it's corn on the cob. Somehow they can move a long piece of food back and forth without hands, and eventually there's just a spinal cord with all the little nubbins chewed off. They don't leave it alone until there's nothing left that they can chew off, and they're barely two inches long, but I'm pretty sure they're eating the ribs. They do that even if they're well-fed.
Under the conditions that cause piranha to attack large prey (half-starved fish packed in close quarters with no other food source), they could probably be pretty dangerous to anything even remotely similar to their size. I might offer them a pinkie mouse to see what they do with it. Or a lizard- our cats sometimes kill them and bring them to us. Is there any reason I couldn't hang a fresh lizard head or tail in the tank and see if the dollars nibble it clean?
They actually don't have weak mouths. Dollars have sharp little teeth and nibble really fast. If they find a silverside piece, they snatch it up and run around the tank eating on it like it's corn on the cob. Somehow they can move a long piece of food back and forth without hands, and eventually there's just a spinal cord with all the little nubbins chewed off. They don't leave it alone until there's nothing left that they can chew off, and they're barely two inches long, but I'm pretty sure they're eating the ribs. They do that even if they're well-fed.
Under the conditions that cause piranha to attack large prey (half-starved fish packed in close quarters with no other food source), they could probably be pretty dangerous to anything even remotely similar to their size. I might offer them a pinkie mouse to see what they do with it. Or a lizard- our cats sometimes kill them and bring them to us. Is there any reason I couldn't hang a fresh lizard head or tail in the tank and see if the dollars nibble it clean?
I wouldn't risk feeding a lizard killed by cats, who know what either could have been carrying....lizards eat weird stuff and cat's claws are FILTHY.
Why can't you have glutten......in the house??
Good point, cats actually grow bacteria to kill birds with.
My mom has celiac, which means her immune system attacks her if she eats even the slightest trace of gluten. If I had fish food with gluten, I'd have to wash my hands very thoroughly after feeding the fish, plus the tank water would probably be contaminated. Which would mean that our bathroom sink would have gluten on it (Python water changer), and so would several surfaces in the room.
And when you have celiac and don't eat gluten for awhile, your immune system goes absolutely mad if it detects any gluten at all, mistaking it for a returning infection that needs to be nuked. Considering that it would make my mom quite sick for several days if she unknowingly touched something that had gluten on it and then ate at any point soon after that, it's not worth the trouble. I have gluten-free food for most of my other fish, and since I can keep my bigger fish fed and happy on frozen food, I'd rather not risk it.
My mom has celiac, which means her immune system attacks her if she eats even the slightest trace of gluten. If I had fish food with gluten, I'd have to wash my hands very thoroughly after feeding the fish, plus the tank water would probably be contaminated. Which would mean that our bathroom sink would have gluten on it (Python water changer), and so would several surfaces in the room.
And when you have celiac and don't eat gluten for awhile, your immune system goes absolutely mad if it detects any gluten at all, mistaking it for a returning infection that needs to be nuked. Considering that it would make my mom quite sick for several days if she unknowingly touched something that had gluten on it and then ate at any point soon after that, it's not worth the trouble. I have gluten-free food for most of my other fish, and since I can keep my bigger fish fed and happy on frozen food, I'd rather not risk it.
