Festae- Quality VS Trash!!

[Calihawk]

LOL, and so does the world also have Handsome people and Unattractive people. However, I cannot make aware, and bring to attention that there are some people that are deemed "Unattractive".

1. Yes, it's being said that there are "Trash" fish out there. (Its like saying theres Trash humans out there)
2. Yes, it's being said that there are Deformed fishes out there. (Deformed humans too)
3. Yes, it's being suggested that only the Quality should be bred and the Trash should not. (Quality human beings should only have babies and people with handicaps should not have babies at all)

Sometimes its easier to say about animals, but to really see how bad it really sounds is to think of what we are saying and apply to US, human beings. It's really like saying, "I am not bashing anyone, but there are "handicap" people out there. Just to let everyone know that some people have deformities and bad genetics, bad complexion. Yup Im not hatin' but just throwin it out there."

The fact is that there are quality and some that are not up to par. But if you dont like a fish...Dont Buy It.

 

[BlesOne]

As to whats been said in regards to related festae reproducing in the wild..... Not to say it isnt possible but VERY HIGHLY unlikely. The thought that two fish will survive to adulthood within the same body of water, pair up, and successfuly reproduce just seems unrealistic imo. Which is one point brought up by the op, festae closer to being wild caught are purest. Deformities are handicaps in nature and so such fish or any animal for that matter seldom makes it.

I think what FWP was getting to was that Festae being sold as WC from certain vendors or other sources with major deformities are more than likely not and = trash. To new comers or unexperienced hobbiest like myself, its definitely beneficial for someone to help point out the differences, when it comes to quality vs inbred garbage wether its labeled as f0, f1,or f100.

 

[BlesOne]

....when it comes to Festae looks, structure, profile, colors, and quality make the all the

 

[Calihawk]

....when it comes to Red Terror looks, structure, profile, colors, and quality make the all the

 

[BlesOne]

^^ IEEE

 

[RD.]

The wild fish being siblings is a key point that many people do not seem to grasp. It's very likely that when you buy young wild caught fish in the 0.5-2" range that they are siblings.

In the case of festae, it's more than just likely that those 1" fish will be siblings, it's a 100% certainty as those festae will not be F0, but will be tank raised juvies born in captivity. Anyone that believes otherwise, I have some beautiful beach front property up here in NW Canada that you might also be interested in.


Jason - the problem that you are seeing in some of the festae currently in circulation is something that one will often see in any species of cichlid that becomes the flavour of the month. Duanes commented on this previously when he stated;

When we breed our cichlids for volume, and do not cull most, when we give 100 or more fry to a fish store, we are asking for the trash we sometimes end up with.

Let me give you a prime example of that, and peathenster this is what I am referring to with regards to a deformity.

Those along with other photos of this F1 pair were posted in a discussion here on MFK last year. Other than myself, only one other person commented on the faces/snouts of those fish, everyone else, including one person who was at some point also actively breeding festae, said nothing. Others were seemingly (WoW) impressed with the quality of this pair.

Having recently seen some of the offspring of this pair in person, including some that shared this same deformity of the snout/face, it became rather clear that we now have a whole bunch of festae circulating in this area that will be carrying this same genetic trait, and that gene (or genes) will no doubt express itself in many future generations to come.

Look familiar? Same deformity in a fish sold as F0.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?283557-Congenital-abnormality-FISH-BEAK

And as previously mentioned, Modest Man saw the same type of beaked shaped mouths in FO festae that were imported by the commercial wholesaler in his area.

That type of genetic deformity has nothing to do with being raised in a pond.


This is a perfect example of why one is now seeing "trash" festae in the hobby, not because one geographical variant is somehow superior over another. Some people get it in their heads that they are going to get rich on the latest flavour of the month, and in a rush to become rich become sloppy with their breeding, and their culling. The breeders of these particular festae are very nice people, they just don't have a lot of experience in breeding fish behind them, and up until this pair of festae had zero experience with this species. They too thought that they would make a bundle on selling festae juvies but it hasn't exactly panned out that way.


If the goal of this discussion was to bring awareness to people who have just started the hobby, or are new to festae, IMO it might have been better to simply list what you personally feel are some of the more desirable traits that one should look for in a festae, as well as the less than desirable traits, posted some photos of various festae showing these traits, and left it at that.

 

[Cakilla]

I was going to make a very informative post and give a very detailed summary of whats causing all the deformaties in festae
but after seeing calihawks Pic I can't for the life of me remember what was we talking about again ....

 

[peathenster]

View attachment 765647

Many thanks for the pictures

RD - I agree with your assessment.

I would not necessarily agree, however, that BlesOne's higher body profile fish should be considered "higher quality" than duanes' more elongated fish. That's just personal preference.

Jason - you might want to rephrase your question to be more specific, so we won't be arguing about different things. Are you talking about the difference between BlesOne's and duanes' fish, or those in RD's pics being "trash"?

 

[peathenster]

Which is one point brought up by the op, festae closer to being wild caught are purest.

Not if one breeds individuals collected from different locations and then select the most attractive offsprings. There's going to be a much higher level of heterozygosity, and one can expect all kinds of phenotype segregating out of the next generation.

 

[RD.]

Not if one breeds individuals collected from different locations and then select the most attractive offsprings. There's going to be a much higher level of heterozygosity, and one can expect all kinds of phenotype segregating out of the next generation.

You might want to break that down in layman's terms.


And Jason, that last point is an important one for you considering this previous comment that you made.

But i do know of festae that are being hand selected from various spawns with particular traits and breeding them to another fish with the same or better traits to pul out better potential. similar to line breeding. Kinda like what im doing with my umbees, breeding this new location X umbee to a rio mag hoping to yield an umbee with the body of a rio mag and the freckles and color of the X.

What you are doing is nothing remotely close to line breeding. You are simply creating a new "aquarium strain" of umbee of mixed origins, to your personal liking. That will result in exactly what peathenster just described. None of these traits that you personally prefer will become fixed in future generations unless you incorporate a certain amount of inbreeding, as previously described by Matt. (see quote below)

Line breeding (i.e. inbreeding to develop lines with desired characteristics...like the ones you identified) requires breeding related fish (or else it won't work).

Some folks might even consider the offspring from this type of mixed geographical (and quite possibly mixed genetic) breedings as "trash".