Before he goes and does some 50% water changes, we must first know his current water change schedule. For all we know he has a nice case of old tank syndrome, and those water changes would hit his other fish hard.
Firemouth sick
- Thread starter invokethegoddess
- Start date
Old tank syndrome could cause a fish kill. However they indicate that water params are good. I know...What the hell does that mean?!
You may be right if the water quality is that bad. However I would suspect many more damaged sick fish than just one.
Getting back to it though, these are classic signs of a bacterial infection caused by overcrowding without enough filtration to handle the bio-load(water changes included in the filtration process for nutrient export).
If you are concerned that your system may have OTS then do 20% water changes each day for 5 days instead. That will reduce the chance of shocking the fish.
For the record, I present this pic...120g planted
This heavily planted tank has over 100 small fish in it. The water quality is immaculate. I had to add nitrates/phosphorous to the tank to continue growing the plants. However, due to overcrowding I still had occassional fish suffer from septicemia. Stress from overcrowding weakens the immune system and allows bacterial infections to occur. If I saw a sick fish I would remove it and chop the plants for my 3 LFS that traded with me and do large scale water changes. Both plants and fish would recover well.
My point is that tests may indicate relatively good water quality but it would take a microscope sample on slides to show the bacteria counts. To control these in high bio-load systems you can use a large UV sterilizer or increase water changes. There is much more to a closed system than just nitrates/nitrites/ammonia. Dissolved organic compounds, hormones,pheromones, etc. These all build up and need to be exported via a water change.
You may be right if the water quality is that bad. However I would suspect many more damaged sick fish than just one.
Getting back to it though, these are classic signs of a bacterial infection caused by overcrowding without enough filtration to handle the bio-load(water changes included in the filtration process for nutrient export).
If you are concerned that your system may have OTS then do 20% water changes each day for 5 days instead. That will reduce the chance of shocking the fish.
For the record, I present this pic...120g planted
This heavily planted tank has over 100 small fish in it. The water quality is immaculate. I had to add nitrates/phosphorous to the tank to continue growing the plants. However, due to overcrowding I still had occassional fish suffer from septicemia. Stress from overcrowding weakens the immune system and allows bacterial infections to occur. If I saw a sick fish I would remove it and chop the plants for my 3 LFS that traded with me and do large scale water changes. Both plants and fish would recover well.
My point is that tests may indicate relatively good water quality but it would take a microscope sample on slides to show the bacteria counts. To control these in high bio-load systems you can use a large UV sterilizer or increase water changes. There is much more to a closed system than just nitrates/nitrites/ammonia. Dissolved organic compounds, hormones,pheromones, etc. These all build up and need to be exported via a water change.
I think the bio load in this tank is ok. The there are only 2 adult fish (one 5 inches and one 6 inches)and the rest are only from 1-3 inches(all babies). The Fronts and the Moori will be moved to another tank when the get a little bigger. I do a 50% water change FAITHFULLY weekly and check the levels daily. No ammonia, No nitrites and the Nitrates are 40. We just added fish, without quarrantine from a reputable friend/breeder ( I know, I know, Naughty! We have made some mistakes, we are still very new to the hobby) Perhaps that is the culprit. I trust your expertise, and I will do what you suggest but I don't think that there is a water quality problem. Stress perhaps from adding new fish and moving to this tank (set up just recently for only 2 months using an established filter)The fish WERE overcrowded in another tank and the water quality WAS bad (that is how we learned...the hard way) We bought the tank and fish, overcrowded and now we are trying to do right by them. They were moved to this new tank for space. We have a fluval 405 for mechanical and chemical filtration and a double stack V hydrosponge for bioligical filtration.
I should add that just immediately before she started looking sick. she and her mate where displaying the signs of mating, ( egg chute out, chasing everyone out of their territory) The day after her egg chute disappeared I noticed she didn't seem herself i'm not sure if that makes any difference or not. I am unexperienced at the mating behaviors.
Thanks for all of your suggestions and I will certainly try to save her. I have no problem doing water changes!
thanks for all of your help and concern!!
It is much appreciated!!
I should add that just immediately before she started looking sick. she and her mate where displaying the signs of mating, ( egg chute out, chasing everyone out of their territory) The day after her egg chute disappeared I noticed she didn't seem herself i'm not sure if that makes any difference or not. I am unexperienced at the mating behaviors.
Thanks for all of your suggestions and I will certainly try to save her. I have no problem doing water changes!
thanks for all of your help and concern!!
It is much appreciated!!
A post spawn fish is weakened and can be even more susceptible to infections via physical damage. If you can separate the fish for a short while you may see rapid improvements. The large scale water changes should also show improvements. For me I never maintain a tank over 20ppm nitrate. I use the accumulated nitrate readings as a guide for water change schedules. My friends will tell you that my FW tanks get weekly 95% water changes. There is only enough water at the bottom of the tank to keep them alive. I also incorporate live plants in all my FW tanks. Floating plants always work well with cichlids but you can always plumb a separate 10/20g on for strictly plants.(easier maintenance)
Did she ever lay eggs? FM females can go thru the rituals of mating but be too weak(under nourished) to produce eggs. If this happens separate the breeding female and feed her meaty foods 2-3 times per day for 2 weeks and then reintroduce her to the male.
I understand your thinking on the bio-load with fish being of small size. Because stress weakens the immune systems of our fish we have to observe them to see if they are being too harassed. If so, they will get sick even if water quality is very good. With 19 fish there is alot of interaction that may or may not be being diverted from the weaker fish. If this is the case the weaker fish will need isolation.
HTH, Rich
Did she ever lay eggs? FM females can go thru the rituals of mating but be too weak(under nourished) to produce eggs. If this happens separate the breeding female and feed her meaty foods 2-3 times per day for 2 weeks and then reintroduce her to the male.
I understand your thinking on the bio-load with fish being of small size. Because stress weakens the immune systems of our fish we have to observe them to see if they are being too harassed. If so, they will get sick even if water quality is very good. With 19 fish there is alot of interaction that may or may not be being diverted from the weaker fish. If this is the case the weaker fish will need isolation.
HTH, Rich
Having a bad day...Just broke my fluval 404...off to the LFS to see If I can get parts...on the other side
tested the water
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitirtes 20
ph 7.4
Did a 80% water change, set up a 10 gallon( off to get a extra pump and heater along with my replacement parts (if they have them!) if no...i guess it's another filter. Damn fish!!LOL
tested the water
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitirtes 20
ph 7.4
Did a 80% water change, set up a 10 gallon( off to get a extra pump and heater along with my replacement parts (if they have them!) if no...i guess it's another filter. Damn fish!!LOL
Well..fixed the fluval...and the firemouth is in a medicated hospital tank ...lets see how it goes!
Thanks to everyone who has responded!! much apprecieated!
Thanks to everyone who has responded!! much apprecieated!
Mr. Firemouth, I agree completely, as my tanks get 50-90% weekly water changes regardless of nitrate buildup. Some claim this stresses the fish, but mine eat during the refilling process lol, from angels to green terrors to bettas and polypterus.
Goodluck with your sick friend invoke.
Goodluck with your sick friend invoke.
Mr.Firemouth;885657; said:
No eggs that I saw. We may consider giving back the 3 pseudotropheus socolofi we have. ( our friend gave us a mature female that was actually holding fry. Maybe he shouldn't have had the beer before he netted the fish
I'm sure he would love her back) we'll see how it goes over the next couple of days.
thanks for all your help!!
Moved her to a hospital tank and she is much worse. nose to the ground, tail almost strait up. Bumping into everything and completely out of it. The 10 gallon is super oxygenated with a sponge filter and air stone as well as an air hose. Used 1 dose of maracyn.
any suggestions??
i think she is a gonner
any suggestions??
i think she is a gonner
