Fish Behavior - Do fish care?

[LBDave]

It seems that fish behavior is rarely talked about on the forum. Just the ongoing tank size, stocking, diseases and for sale signs.......
I have been accused of projecting human emotions to fish. But I have seen some sort of amazing stuff. At least amazing to me.
I have some silver dollars 15 years old + at the time. Once one of them hit the glass and was knocked out. The other 2 stayed right near him at the bottom corner of the tank until he revived.

I have 2 peacock bass in another tank (a breeding pair). Also a jurupari in this tank. The jurupari has grown up with these fish and survived trying to be eaten. He is now over 8" so those days are past. The large bass seems to like him. Never chases him. The Jurupari likes to stay near him. The female bass sometimes chases him a bit. But mostly ignores him.
Seems he likes to hang with the large bass at times so the female doesn't bother him. If the female is in her "mood". Generally these fish are 3 peas in a pod.
About a year ago I saw the juripari at the bottom of the tank in a corner. I was alerted to this because the large bass was down there looking at him. The jurupari had a river stone caught in his mouth. I removed him and took out the rock.
Today I saw the large bass down in a corner. Very strange. The bass always stay at the top. Is he nesting? These bass haven't spawned in years.
I looked and right behind the bass was the jurupari. Gasping a bit. I could tell he had another river rock caught in his mouth. Again I removed him and took the rock out.
Thank God the large bass alerted me.
I just thought I'd pass this along. Fish behavior intrigues me and I don't see it mentioned much in the forum.
My silver dollars are now down to two. They are approaching 20 years old. They are in with an oscar who is a widower. After his mate died the silver dollars are more outgoing. They have no qualms about eating out of my hand. Even being petted a bit. The female will grab food right near this oscar now. He tolerates it now. Probably because chasing her is fruitless. Plus he knows I will make sure he gets his food!

 

[esoxlucius]

It's amazing you have just posted this because I've got a concerning situation going on in my 360 at the minute, and some "strange" behaviour related to it.

My GG must have innocently "scratched" himself on some decor a few days ago. Usually when this happens he may lose a couple of scales but things will heal quickly without the need for treatment.

However, this particular injury has escalated somewhat and a large open scaleless sore has developed. It hasn't helped at all that my other fish, my balas in particular, have been picking at the open wound.

I've been observing for a couple of days now and one thing I've noticed is that my red shoulder severum is constantly, and very uncharacteristically close by to him, a lot more than it usually would. It goes up to the wound, quite close, and it seems to almost inspect the wound, but it never picks at it like my balas have been doing.

And on a couple of occasions, if my sev wonders off too far and the balas move in, the sev will move toward my GG and stay close by again for a while, almost guarding him.

Is my sev protecting my GG? Is it just curious? Does it understand that my GG is injured and is concerned? Cichlids are clever, we know this, so who knows what "feelings" they have. I've never seen behaviour like this before.

One thing I know though, my sev isn't going to fix this sore, only I can do that. So i'm off to my LFS for some Melafix now.

 

[A201]

Those who keep groups of various varieties of Botia Loaches are completely aware of the intricate & complex social relationships they exhibit and the comical antics they perform.
As fishkeepers we are all aware that each fish is an individual with different temperaments & personalities.
Probably not accurate to compare a fish's instinctual behaviors and cognitive awareness with that of human emotion or intellect, but there is definitely something going there.

 

[neutrino]

I kind of pride myself on observing fish behavior and think a lot of people see the obvious, like overt aggression, while missing many of the subtleties. An example is the people who think Cyphotilapia are dumb fish. No they're not, but their behavior, including a lot of their social interaction and signaling, can be subtle. They're actually very curious when they're comfortable with their surroundings. Put a new, odd looking object in the tank or hold a finger or other (non threatening) object near the glass and they'll congregate to check it out and study it. I had a male kapampa that would spend several minutes at a time apparently amusing himself by repeatedly capturing a bubble at the surface then swimming to the bottom of the tank and letting it out with a small, audible pop. Sometimes, but not always, he seemed to do it to get my attention when he wanted to be fed-- at the end of the tank closest to me, of course.

I have other stories, like the A. rivulatus and gold severum that 'liked' to hang out together, or how after the severum died the green terror acted depressed (whatever that means for a fish) for several weeks. Or the rivulatus in an aggressive tank that would maintain order and break up fights between the other fish. Or the C. moorii who thought they big stuff and were bullying the other Malawi cichlids in the tank until I put a 10" male rivulatus in-- they had an amusing reaction to this big fellow with the big hump, approaching him and just staring, as though they were awe stricken. That was that, it put an immediate end to their delinquent behavior.

On the other hand I don't equate fish behavior or awareness to humans. It's fairly apparent to me that fish can be content, comfortable, or something we interpret as 'happy' in their surroundings, but I don't pretend to know what that means for a fish and I don't know any fish that appear to contemplate why we're here, what it all means, or the implications of single photon interference patterns.

 

[jjohnwm]

Playing devil's advocate here...has anyone ever witnessed the behaviour of a herd of bison or a flock of wild turkeys if one of their number falls victim to a bullet or a charge of shot? The survivors will usually gather around their fallen comrade, clustering closely...and beating the living daylights out of the poor guy, whether or not he is still alive! Quite often in cases like that, the individual who has been shot tends to be the biggest, baddest, oldest and most dominant male, so it appears as though all those subordinates have gotten tired of his overbearing attitude and take the opportunity to get in a few licks when the big guy is down. Is that the opposite of "caring"...do they "hate" him?

We see it in fish all the time. Those aquarists who just can't stand to see their fish not fighting and who simply must try this or that silly combination of aggressive tankmates...usually learn over time that the outcome of these gladiatorial matches can often be determined ahead of time by the fishkeeper. A fish that is established in a tank will almost always be the aggressor and the winner in any combat with the new guy dropped into the tank. Reverse the roles, i.e. throw the tough guy into the other's tank, and the outcome will be different. This is assuming two fish of similar capabilities and general aggression levels. Do those fish hate each other? How about those fish that are just not gonna tolerate anybody or anything else in their tanks? Are they just psychotic buttheads? Why do they "hate" everybody?

Our fish...even those which are kept using the best husbandry techniques possible...are all completely nuts, plain and simple. They've got to be. They are confined to spaces that are microscopically small compared to their natural ranges in the wild. They are usually kept at densities that are many times higher than they would encounter in the wild, and often with a mix of other species that they would literally never see in the wild. They tend to be overfed and obese. They virtually never experience natural seasonal variations in day/night cycle or water temperature/chemistry or food supply. Often schooling fish are kept as individuals, confined with a neurotic assortment of other schooling species being kept as individuals or pairs. More enlightened keepers will follow the party line..."buy at least 6 individuals of this species to cater to its schooling tendencies"...and rarely consider that in nature those fish would likely be schooling in the dozens, the hundreds or even thousands of individuals. Six may be better than one or two...but not much...

We see people who profess to love their fish...but then suggest that a tank is of sufficient size for that fish to be "happy" if it allows the fish to turn around comfortably...

"Smart" aquarium fish like cichlids are IMHO simply displaying a combination of aggression and a fairly pathetic desire to see something new. In the wild, they are constantly looking for food, vying for territory, seeking mates, avoiding predators and investing new elements in their environment for one or more of those motivations...but in a tank, it's the same-old-same-old every dang day.

Personally, I just can't think of fish as true "pets" in the way that a dog or cat or bird can be a pet. Can they be "happy"? Beats me; I may try to understand the motivations that result in this action or that behaviour, but I can barely figure out my wife...and she belongs to the same species as I do. I will never truly understand something as alien as a fish, so "loving" them or thinking they are "happy" just isn't going to happen for me. I truly believe that they are instinct-driven little machines, some more complex than others, but essentially emotionless and incapable of thought.

It's easy and tempting to interpret what they do in human terms, using descriptors like happy, sad, angry, love, hate...but that's anthropomorphism, pure and simple. I try to avoid that trap...or at least to fall into it with eyes open and strictly in jest.

 

[Kayden]

As a biology student, the behavior of my fish is something that I take a keen interest in. I believe the key to understanding it is understanding fish communication.

Within fish behavior you have two camps,
1: fish are nothing more than mouths with propulsion and reproductive organs, and any more complexity can be attributed to human projection.
2: fish are keenly intelligent creatures, able to problem solve, learn, teach, and think far more than even some mammals.
Granted most people fall in between said beliefs, they recognize the impressiveness of some of the breeding behavior and social structures fish possess, but chalk it up to mere instinct.
I would like to argue against that. Personally I believe fish are extremely developed in all manners of intelligence. Especially socially (mostly among conspecifics but I’ve seen plenty of examples of cross genus and cross familial communication). Watching cichlids or gouramis is the most apparent display of this, their fin movements, color changes, mouth displays, and aaparent aggression/pettiness can be spotted by even the untrained eye, even with cyprinids or characins, they still communicate through tail flicks, slight pigmentation changes, and certain dances.

to me it’s baffling that people assume that animals who have such complex communication and social structures don’t feel at least a small sense of community and grief over their tankmates.
but everyone is entitled to their own opinions on it, I just think fish are way smarter than we give them credit for.

 

[LBDave]

Playing devil's advocate here...has anyone ever witnessed the behaviour of a herd of bison or a flock of wild turkeys if one of their number falls victim to a bullet or a charge of shot? The survivors will usually gather around their fallen comrade, clustering closely...and beating the living daylights out of the poor guy, whether or not he is still alive! Quite often in cases like that, the individual who has been shot tends to be the biggest, baddest, oldest and most dominant male, so it appears as though all those subordinates have gotten tired of his overbearing attitude and take the opportunity to get in a few licks when the big guy is down. Is that the opposite of "caring"...do they "hate" him?

We see it in fish all the time. Those aquarists who just can't stand to see their fish not fighting and who simply must try this or that silly combination of aggressive tankmates...usually learn over time that the outcome of these gladiatorial matches can often be determined ahead of time by the fishkeeper. A fish that is established in a tank will almost always be the aggressor and the winner in any combat with the new guy dropped into the tank. Reverse the roles, i.e. throw the tough guy into the other's tank, and the outcome will be different. This is assuming two fish of similar capabilities and general aggression levels. Do those fish hate each other? How about those fish that are just not gonna tolerate anybody or anything else in their tanks? Are they just psychotic buttheads? Why do they "hate" everybody?

Our fish...even those which are kept using the best husbandry techniques possible...are all completely nuts, plain and simple. They've got to be. They are confined to spaces that are microscopically small compared to their natural ranges in the wild. They are usually kept at densities that are many times higher than they would encounter in the wild, and often with a mix of other species that they would literally never see in the wild. They tend to be overfed and obese. They virtually never experience natural seasonal variations in day/night cycle or water temperature/chemistry or food supply. Often schooling fish are kept as individuals, confined with a neurotic assortment of other schooling species being kept as individuals or pairs. More enlightened keepers will follow the party line..."buy at least 6 individuals of this species to cater to its schooling tendencies"...and rarely consider that in nature those fish would likely be schooling in the dozens, the hundreds or even thousands of individuals. Six may be better than one or two...but not much...

We see people who profess to love their fish...but then suggest that a tank is of sufficient size for that fish to be "happy" if it allows the fish to turn around comfortably...

"Smart" aquarium fish like cichlids are IMHO simply displaying a combination of aggression and a fairly pathetic desire to see something new. In the wild, they are constantly looking for food, vying for territory, seeking mates, avoiding predators and investing new elements in their environment for one or more of those motivations...but in a tank, it's the same-old-same-old every dang day.

Personally, I just can't think of fish as true "pets" in the way that a dog or cat or bird can be a pet. Can they be "happy"? Beats me; I may try to understand the motivations that result in this action or that behaviour, but I can barely figure out my wife...and she belongs to the same species as I do. I will never truly understand something as alien as a fish, so "loving" them or thinking they are "happy" just isn't going to happen for me. I truly believe that they are instinct-driven little machines, some more complex than others, but essentially emotionless and incapable of thought.

It's easy and tempting to interpret what they do in human terms, using descriptors like happy, sad, angry, love, hate...but that's anthropomorphism, pure and simple. I try to avoid that trap...or at least to fall into it with eyes open and strictly in jest.

I submit that "but in a tank, it's the same-old-same old every dang day" is a projection of humanism. It almost suggests that the fish knows it would be better off in the wild. It would have more fun!
Or that being caged it similar to a tiger or even a human being caged. (From a human's perspective.) Does a fish understand "freedom"?
Is a dog luckier to be a dog in an apartment than a wild dog in the Sahara?
It's funny but I see some fish keepers seem to struggle with this and try to be "scientific" in their outlook. Of course a fish can't feel things! They are just eating machines.
I've seen too much to think that they are only instinct driven machines. If I thought they were I would have no interest in them. Might as well talk to a house plant.

 

[jjohnwm]

I've probably seen as much different fish behaviour as anybody, as a simple result of having watched them, swum with them, caught them...and eaten them...for well over 60 years. Combine that with the amazing talent I possess for sitting motionless in front of a fishtank for long periods of time, engaging in no distracting activities like, for example, thinking...

I believe that we see what we want to see. I watch an interesting behaviour or activity and my reaction to it is to attempt to imagine how such an instinctive behaviour...because that's what I tend to believe most of them are...could have evolved, and what survival benefits it confers upon the fish. And...since I am in that camp to begin with...an answer to the question, whether right or wrong, usually becomes apparent to me.

Others, predisposed to think of fish as possessing much more intelligence than I believe they have, see the same behaviour and point to it as "proof" that the scaly little critters are thinking or perhaps even feeling.

The simple and easily observable fact that we can't agree on the meaning of what we see almost seems to cast doubt on the vaunted human intelligence of which we are so proud. I think my interpretation is obviously correct...just as the other team feels the same way about theirs.

...to me it’s baffling that people assume that animals who have such complex communication and social structures don’t feel at least a small sense of community and grief over their tankmates.

How do you feel about ants, bees, wasps and termites? If those attributes are enough to prove the ability to feel, these guys lead the pack. They can't be shown to "learn" in the traditional sense, where each individual absorbs, remembers and interprets data to alter its behaviour, but the entire hive or colony evolves and "learns" in a way that is analogous to a single mammalian brain learning.

I submit that "but in a tank, it's the same-old-same old every dang day" is a projection of humanism.

I agree completely, it is! If a person doesn't believe the animal feels, this wouldn't be an issue. But...why do so many people convince themselves the animals are thinking and feeling like little people...and yet still treat them like inanimate objects?

...I've seen too much to think that they are only instinct driven machines. If I thought they were I would have no interest in them. Might as well talk to a house plant.

That's why I don't talk to either house plants....or fish... Both are still interesting to me, but neither...IMHO...is thinking about whatever I might have to say, much less harbouring any feelings about the matter.

 

[LBDave]

Those who keep groups of various varieties of Botia Loaches are completely aware of the intricate & complex social relationships they exhibit and the comical antics they perform.
As fishkeepers we are all aware that each fish is an individual with different temperaments & personalities.
Probably not accurate to compare a fish's instinctual behaviors and cognitive awareness with that of human emotion or intellect, but there is definitely something going there.

I like your answer the best. I am not saying I am "obviously correct" nor do I think of myself as being on a "team". But I am fascinated by some of the responses.

 

[A201]

This has been a very good topic to discuss & there have been several outstanding replies.
Thank you for the compliment.