fish feel pain... Or not

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Liam

Jack Dempsey
MFK Member
Jun 30, 2007
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Brisbane - Australia.
Most of us have the impression that cold blooded creatures, such as fish, Don't feel pain. This belief has been around for many years. Only in the past few years we have probebly proved that some fish have do feel pain.

This is quiet a controversial topic for some people, especially anglers (fishermen) and members of animal rights groups. Tempers have flared, fists have been shaken and much heat as been generated on this topic. Some people confuse the issue by claiming (with very little proof) that only animals with the neocortext as a part of their brain can feel pain, and all other creatures, e.g Cows, dogs and fish cannot.
Lets try and cut back on the heat and try to put some light on the subject.

Pain - The problem
The first difficulty is that fish can't talk, and so cannot tell us if they feel pain. The other problem is that fish are not as cute as puppies and don't get so much automatic and immediate sympathy (I'm sure someone is going to disagree with this ~ Pixy). Another confusing topic - Is the fishes reaction pair or just reflex?

For example when you touch something hot you pull your hand away. This does not happen because you feel pain, but reflex. pulling your hand away happens automatically thanks to your spine. your brain is not involved. the heat activates the heat receptors in your hand, which send electric messages to the nerves in your spine. All by themselves they activate the muscles needed to pull your arm away. This happens with out your brain needed to work.
In courtesy, these never centers send electrical signals to the brain to tell you what happened. A very small instant you notice that you feel pain in your hand associated with the heat.
One part of your brain tell your other part "hey Karl, you just put your hand on that hot stove, again. Just thought I would let you know why your arm suddenly jerked. Do you mind not touching that hot stove again? Oh by the way, heres some pain to remind you not to touch it again."
when something happens to the fish, it reacts. Does it react because of reflex or pain? You can see the dilemma.

Pain - The Answers
The 'fish pain' research was done by Drs Sneddon, Braithwaite and gentle from Roslin institute in UK (Yes, the home of dolly, the cloned sheep) and the university of Edinburgh. The scientists tested rainbow trout. Previous studies looked for pain receptors in fish with cartilaginous or non-bony skeletons (rays and sharks), and could not find any. But the researches chose Rainbow trout because they have a bony skeleton. (Warning, may offend some people ~ pixy)
In a series of studies, they examined the fish for pain receptors, exposed them to heat, injected their lips with bee venom, saline solution or acetic acid, recorded brain activity and gave them morphine. They were able to show four results, three of which when combined may suggest they feel pain.




I'll continue this in a while, I've been copying this out of a book for ages.

I'll just add my resources for this article before I forget. I did copied this from
I Ain't Necessarily So, Bro', author Dr Karl Kruszelnicki

'psicine pain', new scientist, 6 september 2003, p 33.
Sneddon, Lynne U., 'the evidence for pain in fish: the use of morphine as an analgesic', alpplied animal behavour science, 5 septemeber 2003, pp 153-162.
Sneddon, Lynne U., et al., 'Do fishes have nociceptors? evidence for the evolion of a vertebrate sensory system' Proceeding of the Royal Society of London, 30 april 2003, pp 1115-1121.
'Tender lips', Science, 9 may 2003, P 897

Don't post until I say i'm done
 
No I'm having a break from the pc and turning it off, so I had to post
 
i suppose you can, it will just look weird that i havng't finished and people have posted.
 
Well, but those "heat receptors" are nerves are they not? Isn't pain recorded by and through nerve endings? If a fish can feel heat, which would be by nerves, it would seem they could feel pain. If they can feel heat, what happens if that heat becomes intense? Reflexes are caused by pain from nerve ending exposed to whatever it is that is damaging the nerves. I'm obviously no expert but I would think if they have nerves that cause reflexes, often more violent based on the extremity of the damage induced, they are infact feeling pain.

I have heard of a human disease where the person cannot feel ANY pain. The person could infact lay his hand on a burning hot stove, fracture a leg, and not even feel it OR, have reflex induced actions. So if he can feel no pain, and that causes no reflexes, it makes sense to me that reflexes that fish have are from pain.

That alone would make my personal opinion that fish can and do feel pain.
 
Fish Have Pain Receptors
First, they showed that each trout had around 58 specialized receptors on its head. Sine if these receptors responded to just one stimulus, while others responded to many.
Sixteen of them were some kind of pressure and touch receptor that responded slowly to physical pressure. Another 14 also seemed to be a type of pressure and touch receptor, but these responded quickly to physical pressure. Another six receptors responded only to mechanical and chemical stimulation, such as 1% acetic acid. Four receptors responded only to heat and mechanical pressure. Finally 18 receptors responded to mechanical, heat and chemical stimulation.
In human beings, receptors that pick up heat and mechanical pressure are identified as being pain receptors. therefore, in the rainbow trout these left 22 receptors (4+18) could be counted as pain receptors. In fact, under microscope, these receptors look virtually identical to the corresponding human receptors . They also had very similar mechanical and thermal thresholds. These receptors send signals to the fish brain via nerves.
So rainbow trout have complete 'neuro-apparatus' needed to experience pain.

Fish React
Second, the lips of the fish were subjected to various nasty stimuli, while those of the control group of fish were not. The experimental group increased their heart rate by up to 30%. They also massively increased the rate at which they beat their gills. However, these reactions could be a simple reflex. it does not mean that their brains felt pain.
In general, you would think that it would be essential for an animal to be able to feel pain. the memory of the unpleasant sensation would make them keep away from immediate sources of injury. In the long run, this would help them live longer.
When you pull your hand away from the heat, it is because of a reflex, not because of the pain. the pain comes later. the pain occurs to teach you not to touch hot things again. the fish reacted to the nasty stimuli, but thats not enough to say whether they did or did not feel pain.
On its own, this 'reaction test' doesn't prove that fish felt pain. But the next finding did suggest this.

Post-traumatic Stress
Third, the scientists observed that many of the fish had abnormal reactions after they had been injured.
Some of the fish adopted a 'rocking' behavior similar to what people who have had a close encounter with death will often do. (if you study TV footage of survivors of train accidents or earthquakes you will see some of them rocking back and forth, their arms clasped to their chests.) Some of the fish refused to feed for a long time after the injury. Other fish rubbed their lips in the gravel of their tank, something they would normally never do.
the fish suffered post-traumatic stress reactions. Some of these were almost indenticle to human post-traumatic stres reactions (e.g. rocking, not eating). some reactions (e.g. rubbing the lips in the gravel) were the fish equivalent of us using hands to rub sore lips.

Pain killers
The last test was very interesting.
Dr sneddon first first injected various nasty chemicals into the lips of the rainbow trout. As expected, they showed various kinds of abnormal behaviour and distress.
She then gave them a painkiller - morphine. The fish behaviour returned to normal.

Conclusion
The rainbow trout had all the necessary receptors and wiring react to nasty stimuli. When hit with nasty stimulus, they did what we would do - they pulled away and then showed abnormal behaviour. and finally, Went given a pain killer their abnormal behaviour went away.
frin these results, it seems fairly likely that fish (or rainbow trout at least) feel pain.
 
llamabob;1163761; said:
Well, but those "heat receptors" are nerves are they not? Isn't pain recorded by and through nerve endings? If a fish can feel heat, which would be by nerves, it would seem they could feel pain. If they can feel heat, what happens if that heat becomes intense? Reflexes are caused by pain from nerve ending exposed to whatever it is that is damaging the nerves. I'm obviously no expert but I would think if they have nerves that cause reflexes, often more violent based on the extremity of the damage induced, they are infact feeling pain.

I have heard of a human disease where the person cannot feel ANY pain. The person could infact lay his hand on a burning hot stove, fracture a leg, and not even feel it OR, have reflex induced actions. So if he can feel no pain, and that causes no reflexes, it makes sense to me that reflexes that fish have are from pain.

That alone would make my personal opinion that fish can and do feel pain.

neither I, I'm not a expert either, I simply copyied this out of a book, read my second post, it might make some sence.
 
I'm gonna stick a needle in my oscars eye and then ask him if it hurts...I'll be right back.
 
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