I think folks are missing this part "... Day 40: Still haven't seen the nitrites.... (using API liquid test)"
Fishless Cycle Failure
- Thread starter Rhinox
- Start date
Good idea on asking for gravel. Hadn't actually thought of that. The closest stores to me are the chain pet stores, I'm guessing they might look at me funny if I asked for used gravel. Actual LFS (that I know of) are further away but there are likely some closer I haven't looked at yet. At a suggestion from another site, I was going to buy a few cheap aquatic plants to get the seed bacteria from the roots/potting material, but when I checked there was very little actual media around the roots so it didn't seem like an efficient buy. Asking for gravel seems like a better idea. It was also suggested I could throw a handful of garden soil into the sump to get it seeded but I don't have a garden and I have a lawn service that uses various fertilizers and weed killers that doesn't seem like a good idea to risk introducing to the system. With the bottled products I always hear it's a gamble whether you end up with a bottle that still has live bacteria in it so figured I'd just let it happen naturally even if it took a little longer. Now "a little longer" is turning into not happening at all so it's probably worth a shot. Thanks for the suggestions and for wishing me luck!
My own reference point when I did this from scratch in a new 55g with identical baseline water parameters and new 2 new AC110's running sponges, it took 14 days for the ammonia to be converted to nitrite and then about another 3 weeks to get the nitrite to turn into nitrate. And from what I've learned since, the likely reason the second half took that long was that my pH had dropped down to like 6.5 which stalls out cycling. The day after I did a big water change to reduce nitrite concentration (but actually replenished KH and raised pH), the cycle completed.
For the first 3 weeks, the only differences between this time and what I did in the past were the tank and equipment, brand of ammonia, and starting ammonia concentration. Then a few weeks in when nothing happened I upped the ammonia, added food, added air, etc. Nitrites seem long overdue to me but maybe it was my first experience that was the atypical one and this time is more normal (or atypical to the other extreme)?
I'm not planning on having aquatic plants but do have plans for a terrestrial plant external rack/loop. That was going to be a later project though.
I'm humbled by this experience so graciously accepting all advice, even the newb-targeted advice I thought I learned years ago. Especially since I'm not yet a regular around here and nobody knows if I even truly understand what a "cycle" is lol
I'm going to look for a closeby one (that's not a chain box pet store)
I agree adding a bottled bacteria can't really hurt. Whether it helps depends on if the bottle's still live when I get it and whether I've got something wrong in my tank preventing or killing bacteria. But yeah if and when I go that route I'd probably buy the small bottle and just dump the whole thing in rather than the capful amounts recommended on the labels. Can get stability or API quick start for <$10 at the chain pet store, seems like a minimal risk thing to try. Doing so feels like admitting defeat though. It really should have at least started to cycle without it by now.
I believe I did make a mistake when starting out with too low an ammonia concentration. I thought low ammonia would cycle faster and I could up the artificial bioload later on once I got the full system set up. I concede I may have over corrected the initial low concentration with now a much higher, uncontrolled, and unknown concentration. Here sources tend to contradict. Some say stop adding ammonia at "X" ppm, others say keep adding "Y" ppm every day (which would build up to a very high ppm) then cut in half and go to every other day once nitrites show up. I tend to believe there's no real goldilocks concentration and as long as there was some ammonia it would eventually get converted to nitrite. My concept of "eventually" was defined as a range of like 2-4 weeks though, not 40+ days, so I'm willing to reconsider.
Adding the fish food had additional goals besides just adding ammonia. Elsewhere, I got pointed in the direction of a reference site with some unconventional ideas that seemed to make some sense to me. There were a few good reasons provided for adding food, and I could think of very little downside and none that couldn't be reversed by water changes and cleaning, so it's kind of an experiment to try out some of the claims. Most simply, I'm expecting to have excess food and waste in my filter anyways that's going to get broken down into ammonia and ultimately nitrate. That requires another type of beneficial bacteria that doesn't get cultivated when cycling with ammonia only. It makes sense to me to get that bacteria established in my filtration system while fishless cycling.
After 40 days of waiting I think I've proven I understand the patience required
. It's not impatience that made me post here. I'm a little frustrated, sure, but mainly seeking to understand why the ammonia consuming bacteria are stubbornly refusing to naturally grow. Impatience would have led me to try the bottled products weeks ago and only my stubbornness preventing me from doing so at this point.
I was re-reading the Opening Post, where you said you removed the bio-balls.
How long had they been in the sump, before removing them?
The cycle may have been proceeding, and then by removing the bio-balls, and adding something new, you may have short circuited your cycle, hence very little or no nitrite, and taking longer than expected.
One other question is the main tank set up and cycled, or not?
If it was set up, there would be no need to "cycle" the sump separately.
Just attach it to the tank, and let it grow the proper population of bacteria naturally while running.
How long had they been in the sump, before removing them?
The cycle may have been proceeding, and then by removing the bio-balls, and adding something new, you may have short circuited your cycle, hence very little or no nitrite, and taking longer than expected.
One other question is the main tank set up and cycled, or not?
If it was set up, there would be no need to "cycle" the sump separately.
Just attach it to the tank, and let it grow the proper population of bacteria naturally while running.
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I've done a fishless cycle with 0.25ppm of ammonia (as a result of chloramine in the tap water). It took around 1 month just to get nitrites. Cycle time was around 6-7 weeks, maybe longer. All I did was water changes to replenish the ammonia. So in my experience, too low of an ammonia dose didn't have a bearing on not allowing a tank to cycle.I agree adding a bottled bacteria can't really hurt. Whether it helps depends on if the bottle's still live when I get it and whether I've got something wrong in my tank preventing or killing bacteria. But yeah if and when I go that route I'd probably buy the small bottle and just dump the whole thing in rather than the capful amounts recommended on the labels. Can get stability or API quick start for <$10 at the chain pet store, seems like a minimal risk thing to try. Doing so feels like admitting defeat though. It really should have at least started to cycle without it by now.
I believe I did make a mistake when starting out with too low an ammonia concentration. I thought low ammonia would cycle faster and I could up the artificial bioload later on once I got the full system set up. I concede I may have over corrected the initial low concentration with now a much higher, uncontrolled, and unknown concentration. Here sources tend to contradict. Some say stop adding ammonia at "X" ppm, others say keep adding "Y" ppm every day (which would build up to a very high ppm) then cut in half and go to every other day once nitrites show up. I tend to believe there's no real goldilocks concentration and as long as there was some ammonia it would eventually get converted to nitrite. My concept of "eventually" was defined as a range of like 2-4 weeks though, not 40+ days, so I'm willing to reconsider.
Adding the fish food had additional goals besides just adding ammonia. Elsewhere, I got pointed in the direction of a reference site with some unconventional ideas that seemed to make some sense to me. There were a few good reasons provided for adding food, and I could think of very little downside and none that couldn't be reversed by water changes and cleaning, so it's kind of an experiment to try out some of the claims. Most simply, I'm expecting to have excess food and waste in my filter anyways that's going to get broken down into ammonia and ultimately nitrate. That requires another type of beneficial bacteria that doesn't get cultivated when cycling with ammonia only. It makes sense to me to get that bacteria established in my filtration system while fishless cycling.
After 40 days of waiting I think I've proven I understand the patience required
"Cycling" a tank really shouldn't be this difficult or stressful.
Some gravel, some muck from gravel, a dirty sponge or some fluff, even some plants - real or plastic - will have the "bacteria" that you need to get started.
In nearly 40 years of fishkeeping, I've never added ammonia to a tank.
Some gravel, some muck from gravel, a dirty sponge or some fluff, even some plants - real or plastic - will have the "bacteria" that you need to get started.
In nearly 40 years of fishkeeping, I've never added ammonia to a tank.
Should I be concerned about the sudsy bubbles that are forming on the surface of the water in my sump? The airstones are currently sustaining them but I can also create them by splashing or squirting water in, or lifting the outlet tube above the surface. They dissipate quickly if I shut the air off or when I resubmerged the outlet tube. I've been told they could be caused just by the ammonia but the ammonia in my bottle doesn't bubble when I shake it. Maybe because the bottle is pure ammonia and the water in the tank/tap has other impurities? I worry I might have somehow got some soap in but the bubbles don't feel soapy, don't have the rainbow colors like a soap bubble would, and dissipate very rapidly unlike soap bubbles. I tried to skim some out and they just immediately collapsed and there was nothing to remove. If it was soap, would soap even prevent cycling anyways? I'm wondering if this should have been a sign I should have done some water changes a long time ago. Here's a pic from a week ago:
The main tank was not up and running. It has been stored dry in my garage. I had some work in the basement to do before I could set up and I needed help moving the tank and stand downstairs, so I started the sump cycling early on it's own during the wait. The hope was I'd be cycled once I had the tank downstairs and everything else ready.
Even in the past when I've started up new tanks from established seed, I've still added at least 1 dose of ammonia to validate to myself there was enough bacteria to avoid an ammonia/nitrite spike. When I add fish, I'm likely going to be wanting to add a bunch at a time. It's a recommended practice for malawi cichlids anyways. With my LFS being kinda far away and usually not having everything I want at one time anyways, I had to have most of the fish I've kept in the past shipped to me, and 1 big order is more cost efficient than multiple smaller orders spread out over time. I doubt I could ever be comfortable putting multiple $100's in fish value on the line and just hoping there's no spike relying only on some gravel, some muck from gravel, a dirty sponge or some fluff, etc. I'm much more comfortable validating the biological filtration capability prior to putting fish in the tank and that means adding an ammonia source even if seed media is used.
The bioballs were in nearly the full 40 days before I took them out, so that's only a problem going forward if they did have some bacteria in them. Didn't really look, feel, or smell like it though lol. And the rest of the media, the foam that was already in there, should have quite a bit more surface area than the bioballs anyways. I did realize in taking them out I was sacrificing any bacteria growth that would have been on them up to this point.
The main tank was not up and running. It has been stored dry in my garage. I had some work in the basement to do before I could set up and I needed help moving the tank and stand downstairs, so I started the sump cycling early on it's own during the wait. The hope was I'd be cycled once I had the tank downstairs and everything else ready.
I appreciate this and your experience. When I started out I wasn't in a hurry and had time to wait anyways. I also had a successful experience doing it the exact same way in the past. Now I'm still not in a hurry but I'm not really waiting on anything else. I expect if/when I walk into a LFS I don't have a relationship with to ask for a bag of dirty gravel I'll get generally the same reaction as this and possibly a hard sell on just adding fish, a bunch or product to condition or detoxify my water, and a request to bring in a water sample so they can test for me and tell me what I need to buy to fix it. Etc.
Even in the past when I've started up new tanks from established seed, I've still added at least 1 dose of ammonia to validate to myself there was enough bacteria to avoid an ammonia/nitrite spike. When I add fish, I'm likely going to be wanting to add a bunch at a time. It's a recommended practice for malawi cichlids anyways. With my LFS being kinda far away and usually not having everything I want at one time anyways, I had to have most of the fish I've kept in the past shipped to me, and 1 big order is more cost efficient than multiple smaller orders spread out over time. I doubt I could ever be comfortable putting multiple $100's in fish value on the line and just hoping there's no spike relying only on some gravel, some muck from gravel, a dirty sponge or some fluff, etc. I'm much more comfortable validating the biological filtration capability prior to putting fish in the tank and that means adding an ammonia source even if seed media is used.
So, you have to establish a relationship somehow. Or maybe not. But you should establish a relationship with your local, even if it’s a big box. The easiest way to get used gravel from a shop is to talk to the clerk or whatever you call the fish monger and say “I have a new aquarium to cycle. I was wondering if you could help out, I would like to buy this tiny bag of gravel- and then you can add that to one of your tanks and send me home with some of your established gravel? Or do the same but witha decoration. Or plastic plants. Easy. If they say no, say thank you, put back the bag of gravel or whatever you had, leave and don’t buy the gravel from them-Should I be concerned about the sudsy bubbles that are forming on the surface of the water in my sump? The airstones are currently sustaining them but I can also create them by splashing or squirting water in, or lifting the outlet tube above the surface. They dissipate quickly if I shut the air off or when I resubmerged the outlet tube. I've been told they could be caused just by the ammonia but the ammonia in my bottle doesn't bubble when I shake it. Maybe because the bottle is pure ammonia and the water in the tank/tap has other impurities? I worry I might have somehow got some soap in but the bubbles don't feel soapy, don't have the rainbow colors like a soap bubble would, and dissipate very rapidly unlike soap bubbles. I tried to skim some out and they just immediately collapsed and there was nothing to remove. If it was soap, would soap even prevent cycling anyways? I'm wondering if this should have been a sign I should have done some water changes a long time ago. Here's a pic from a week ago:
The bioballs were in nearly the full 40 days before I took them out, so that's only a problem going forward if they did have some bacteria in them. Didn't really look, feel, or smell like it though lol. And the rest of the media, the foam that was already in there, should have quite a bit more surface area than the bioballs anyways. I did realize in taking them out I was sacrificing any bacteria growth that would have been on them up to this point.
The main tank was not up and running. It has been stored dry in my garage. I had some work in the basement to do before I could set up and I needed help moving the tank and stand downstairs, so I started the sump cycling early on it's own during the wait. The hope was I'd be cycled once I had the tank downstairs and everything else ready.
I appreciate this and your experience. When I started out I wasn't in a hurry and had time to wait anyways. I also had a successful experience doing it the exact same way in the past. Now I'm still not in a hurry but I'm not really waiting on anything else. I expect if/when I walk into a LFS I don't have a relationship with to ask for a bag of dirty gravel I'll get generally the same reaction as this and possibly a hard sell on just adding fish, a bunch or product to condition or detoxify my water, and a request to bring in a water sample so they can test for me and tell me what I need to buy to fix it. Etc.
Even in the past when I've started up new tanks from established seed, I've still added at least 1 dose of ammonia to validate to myself there was enough bacteria to avoid an ammonia/nitrite spike. When I add fish, I'm likely going to be wanting to add a bunch at a time. It's a recommended practice for malawi cichlids anyways. With my LFS being kinda far away and usually not having everything I want at one time anyways, I had to have most of the fish I've kept in the past shipped to me, and 1 big order is more cost efficient than multiple smaller orders spread out over time. I doubt I could ever be comfortable putting multiple $100's in fish value on the line and just hoping there's no spike relying only on some gravel, some muck from gravel, a dirty sponge or some fluff, etc. I'm much more comfortable validating the biological filtration capability prior to putting fish in the tank and that means adding an ammonia source even if seed media is used.
Because hey- they have to establish the relationship too.
I've used Ace Hardware Janitorial Ammonia to maintain a cycle in a tank with a sponge filter, and never had the bubbles.
The bubbling in your sump looks rather excessive.
The bubbling in your sump looks rather excessive.
