Fleshy's 125g Build

[Kevin8888]

It's funny all the arguments about filtration haha, so I'm going to throw in my two cents lol.

Personaly I say the only thing filtration wise that is required for a reef is a algea scrubber. Though thats assuming the scrubber is set up correctly and maintained correctly (which isn't that hard).

Skimmers do remove things from the water that benifit your corals, its a fact, but at the same time the remove things that are bad, and yes you can reef very successfuly with a skimmer, but using one is unnessisary and expencive in my opinion (especialy when you get into big tanks).

The good thing about scrubbers is that the dont remove good things from the water (unless you have decorative macro algeas in your tank), they only remove the bad, like nitrates, and phosphates they also help with nitrites. Best of all they also remove the need to water change to get rid of nitrates/phosphates (which is the primary reason for waterchanges), but if you dont have a calc reactor you have to suppliment the calcium/mag/stront/etc or your corals wont do well. So scrubbers mean less salt to buy, and less RODI water to make as only evap water needs replacing.

Scrubbers also harbour pods, the pods live in/off the scrubbers algea, then free float into your system where fish like dragonets and seahorses, as well as your corals (to name a few things that like pods) can consume them, which makes keeping picky fish like dragonets and horses easier.

SO in conclution of my lengthy post lol a good scrubber is better then a skimmer, canister, wet dry or any combined, but thats assuming proper bio filtration is going on as we all know without proper bio the tank will die haha. But at the same time I'm not saying what your doing is wrong, if it works for you go with it, I'm just listing an alternative for your and others concideration.

 

[Ashlee]

So you say a protien skimmer is bad because it depletes nutrients for corals, yet you say a sump is best? Wet-drys cause nutrient depletion themselves, and arent ideal for corals either. Unless your keeping Acro or something else like that, I dont think your going to notice that big of a problem.

There are ways to go about not using a protien skimmer, and you are right that a scrubber and good sump is a way of steering around it, but it by no means steers around the element depleation issue.

Why dont you tell the guys at extreme corals that their two 10k gallon skimmers are stupid and destroying the nutrients for their coral prop. and keeping facility? If it was as bad as you make it out to be, I highly doubt that would be using them.

Now, if you can start putting hard percentages down of how much is lost due to a skimmer, and the setup you reccomend, then taht would be nice, and perhaps make me shut up.

I never said a sump or wet dry was better for a reef. I said refugium, which is just another form an algae scrubber. I wouldn't tell the coral guys with 10k tanks that they where stupid. They only hold the corals for a short while, and the skimmer gets them by until they are purchased or sent to lfs. Actually number wise, more coral FARMS use skimmerless systems. They actually use sponges and macros for replenishing water.

You can use a skimmer, and i have nothing against using skimmers. I am only informing the benefits of other methods. While many of you think a skimmer is good for a reef, there are much better options. A refugium alone would be much better. Algae scrubber like Kevin stated would be most ideal for colors, nutrition and growth.

Let me decode some of the benefits you think your getting from a skimmer...

1. You think your cutting down on intervals of water changes and keeping nitrates down..... While yes you maybe cutting down on nitrates, your stripping the water of other necessary elements. As well as stripping food from the corals. So for losing nitrates your losing good elements and food. That will lead to damaged corals not healing due to lack of iodine, calcium running out and causing slower growth. When you can just have a scrubber, or a fuge that eats the nitrates, and turns them back into food for your corals, and provides amazing nutrients itself!

2. Oxygen in the water..... A fuge can actually produce higher oxygen levels than a skimmer, and can beat a wet/dry in oxygenating.

3. Skimmers are easy as hooking up and be done.... this maybe true but they are expensive. They also strip elements and thats why they created calcium reactors and phosphate absorbers. Its all a marketing scheme.


There isn't a single thing a skimmer does better than others. Does it still work? SURE IT DOES!! Are your reefs getting the best nutrition? Maybe... Be sure to turn your skimmer off while feeding and maybe dedicate 12hrs on 12hrs off.

But i don't know why you would ever just buy a skimmer instead of building such a cheap amazing thing like a fuge or an algae scrubber. I mean hey i use a skimmer on my tank, and TheCanuck uses a skimmer on his tank, but thats FOWLR. We don't have filter feeders, and thats where the debate takes place.

So while yes skimmers can be used and are effective, I think they cause more work than they solve. You actually need to do more water changes with them on a reef, and they are expensive. When you can build a scrubber, save money on food, water changes, better water params, and keep your corals at optimal levels. I just miss where the skimmer is better than the fuge or scrubber?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180385


lol i don't want you to shut up, skimmers have their place in the aquarium industry. I just don't think they are as great and needed as everyone states. You want to see some real reefs? Check out true coral farms, they use algae filters and screens. Heck check out the ocean! Wheres the skimmer? Its algae, and the true reef keepers know this. Everyone who uses skimmers on those large tanks i feel sorry for. They probably got talked into using ozone and other stupid products as well...

Fleshy if you have looked over the scrubber and decided its not for you then thats okay. Just have a good look over it, and read it all. As for the canister, if thats what your limited to, heck TheCanuck uses the fx5 on his tank, and used it alone on his 125 predator, with no skimmer. They are GREAT when maintained and i am sure you will maintain it. I read your posts and know you will. What media is going into the fx5?

 

[Heathd]

I never said a sump or wet dry was better for a reef. I said refugium, which is just another form an algae scrubber. I wouldn't tell the coral guys with 10k tanks that they where stupid. They only hold the corals for a short while, and the skimmer gets them by until they are purchased or sent to lfs. Actually number wise, more coral FARMS use skimmerless systems. They actually use sponges and macros for replenishing water.

You can use a skimmer, and i have nothing against using skimmers. I am only informing the benefits of other methods. While many of you think a skimmer is good for a reef, there are much better options. A refugium alone would be much better. Algae scrubber like Kevin stated would be most ideal for colors, nutrition and growth.

Let me decode some of the benefits you think your getting from a skimmer...

1. You think your cutting down on intervals of water changes and keeping nitrates down..... While yes you maybe cutting down on nitrates, your stripping the water of other necessary elements. As well as stripping food from the corals. So for losing nitrates your losing good elements and food. That will lead to damaged corals not healing due to lack of iodine, calcium running out and causing slower growth. When you can just have a scrubber, or a fuge that eats the nitrates, and turns them back into food for your corals, and provides amazing nutrients itself!

2. Oxygen in the water..... A fuge can actually produce higher oxygen levels than a skimmer, and can beat a wet/dry in oxygenating.

3. Skimmers are easy as hooking up and be done.... this maybe true but they are expensive. They also strip elements and thats why they created calcium reactors and phosphate absorbers. Its all a marketing scheme.


There isn't a single thing a skimmer does better than others. Does it still work? SURE IT DOES!! Are your reefs getting the best nutrition? Maybe... Be sure to turn your skimmer off while feeding and maybe dedicate 12hrs on 12hrs off.

But i don't know why you would ever just buy a skimmer instead of building such a cheap amazing thing like a fuge or an algae scrubber. I mean hey i use a skimmer on my tank, and TheCanuck uses a skimmer on his tank, but thats FOWLR. We don't have filter feeders, and thats where the debate takes place.

So while yes skimmers can be used and are effective, I think they cause more work than they solve. You actually need to do more water changes with them on a reef, and they are expensive. When you can build a scrubber, save money on food, water changes, better water params, and keep your corals at optimal levels. I just miss where the skimmer is better than the fuge or scrubber?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180385


lol i don't want you to shut up, skimmers have their place in the aquarium industry. I just don't think they are as great and needed as everyone states. You want to see some real reefs? Check out true coral farms, they use algae filters and screens. Heck check out the ocean! Wheres the skimmer? Its algae, and the true reef keepers know this. Everyone who uses skimmers on those large tanks i feel sorry for. They probably got talked into using ozone and other stupid products as well...

Fleshy if you have looked over the scrubber and decided its not for you then thats okay. Just have a good look over it, and read it all. As for the canister, if thats what your limited to, heck TheCanuck uses the fx5 on his tank, and used it alone on his 125 predator, with no skimmer. They are GREAT when maintained and i am sure you will maintain it. I read your posts and know you will. What media is going into the fx5?

I must have mis-read about you recommending the sump, my apologies.

And no, I wont argue the benefits of a scrubber, its something I very much want to do. I use my skimmer because I got it for free and because I like it.
Even if the scrubber could control my phosphates and nitrates on its own, i will never remove the skimmer as I like to mitigate risk. As far as pods go, I will probably just end up doing local administrations of something like marine snow.

Im just not that caught up in the small amount of elements I am going to be missing due the skimmer. The corals I intend on keeping are not very demanding, and I dont see myself ever getting to the point where I will keep a sps.

And Canuck most likely needs the skimmer just because of his messy monsters that he keeps.

When does he get to come back and play?

 

[Ashlee]

I must have mis-read about you recommending the sump, my apologies.

And no, I wont argue the benefits of a scrubber, its something I very much want to do. I use my skimmer because I got it for free and because I like it.
Even if the scrubber could control my phosphates and nitrates on its own, i will never remove the skimmer as I like to mitigate risk. As far as pods go, I will probably just end up doing local administrations of something like marine snow.

Im just not that caught up in the small amount of elements I am going to be missing due the skimmer. The corals I intend on keeping are not very demanding, and I dont see myself ever getting to the point where I will keep a sps.

And Canuck most likely needs the skimmer just because of his messy monsters that he keeps.

When does he get to come back and play?

Canuck comes back on the 14th i think. He is such a loser, hes been all grumpy cause he can't talk fish with his buddies... Hes been busy though, setting up this new tank for me. This tank is far from what he likes...

 

[Heathd]

Canuck comes back on the 14th i think. He is such a loser, hes been all grumpy cause he can't talk fish with his buddies... Hes been busy though, setting up this new tank for me. This tank is far from what he likes...

Do you have a thread on this setup? I want to see.

 

[Ashlee]

Do you have a thread on this setup? I want to see.

its not done yet, even though it had fish in it 20 minutes after it was filled...

 

[FLESHY]

First off, Id like to say thanks to Kevin for a realistic rebuttal. Now, to shut this one down.

I never said a sump or wet dry was better for a reef. I said refugium, which is just another form an algae scrubber. I wouldn't tell the coral guys with 10k tanks that they where stupid. They only hold the corals for a short while, and the skimmer gets them by until they are purchased or sent to lfs. Actually number wise, more coral FARMS use skimmerless systems. They actually use sponges and macros for replenishing water.

Show me the one major coral prop facility in the US that doesnt use a skimmer.

1. You think your cutting down on intervals of water changes and keeping nitrates down..... While yes you maybe cutting down on nitrates, your stripping the water of other necessary elements. As well as stripping food from the corals. So for losing nitrates your losing good elements and food. That will lead to damaged corals not healing due to lack of iodine, calcium running out and causing slower growth. When you can just have a scrubber, or a fuge that eats the nitrates, and turns them back into food for your corals, and provides amazing nutrients itself!

My corals are doing better than yours. Fact...that being said, my nutrient levels are not being depleted by my skimmers. Thats laughable. I test with salifert test kits, and nothing is being effected by my skimmers. I have large ammounts of fast growing sps and lps and hardly even need to dose for calcium or 3-part. I also feed my corals a mix of foods, so Im not that concerned about losing the copepods that arent really in my tank anyways.

2. Oxygen in the water..... A fuge can actually produce higher oxygen levels than a skimmer, and can beat a wet/dry in oxygenating.

Oxygenating a reef can increase salinity! (Fluxuations are the number one reason corals die or dont do well.) Fact. - That being said, my tank has an airpump on it because it is partially covered and in systems that contain live macro algae, and have been established for a long time, not having o2 exchange can lead to pH fluxuations. And as I already mentioned, fluxuations = bad.

3. Skimmers are easy as hooking up and be done.... this maybe true but they are expensive. They also strip elements and thats why they created calcium reactors and phosphate absorbers. Its all a marketing scheme.

Show me your numbers on your skimmer "stripping" elements. I just dont see any science behind that. You show me scientific research that supports this I will throw my skimmer out of my bedroom window and not filter my water at all.

There isn't a single thing a skimmer does better than others. Does it still work? SURE IT DOES!! Are your reefs getting the best nutrition? Maybe... Be sure to turn your skimmer off while feeding and maybe dedicate 12hrs on 12hrs off.

If you seriously believed what you said when you said that you realized that I was going to properly maintain things, you wouldnt feel that you had to reed the skimmer manual to me.

But i don't know why you would ever just buy a skimmer instead of building such a cheap amazing thing like a fuge or an algae scrubber. I mean hey i use a skimmer on my tank, and TheCanuck uses a skimmer on his tank, but thats FOWLR. We don't have filter feeders, and thats where the debate takes place.

We have touched on this. No room. No money. Tank is setup, and cant be drilled. Wish I COULD have a sump. I have very few animals in my tank that are exclusively filter feeders. Most corals get their energy from the sun. 95% of that energy. I still feed them and thats why they do so well.
I have maybe two corals in my tank that NEED to be fed, and I dont feed one of them and its still growing faster than most peoples.

So while yes skimmers can be used and are effective, I think they cause more work than they solve. You actually need to do more water changes with them on a reef, and they are expensive. When you can build a scrubber, save money on food, water changes, better water params, and keep your corals at optimal levels. I just miss where the skimmer is better than the fuge or scrubber?

I spent $200 on a top of the line skimmer. Will probably last me till I am out of the hobby again. I use well water, spend a miniscule ammount of money when broken down per day on salt, dont need to supplement nutrients frequently, and $9 of coral food has lasted me almost two years now. Hard to beat water parameters of 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate. My tank gets bi-weekly water changes, and sometimes goes a third week...no changes. Yes, I have live macro algae growing in my tank, and thats part of the reason, but it also has a waste-machine (tang) and two clowns. I dont believe that your water quality is better than mine, and I havent seen any results from you. Are you even a reefer?

lol i don't want you to shut up, skimmers have their place in the aquarium industry. I just don't think they are as great and needed as everyone states. You want to see some real reefs? Check out true coral farms, they use algae filters and screens. Heck check out the ocean! Wheres the skimmer? Its algae, and the true reef keepers know this. Everyone who uses skimmers on those large tanks i feel sorry for. They probably got talked into using ozone and other stupid products as well...

its not done yet, even though it had fish in it 20 minutes after it was filled...

Do you feel as sorry for those people as I feel for your fish?

Whats a true coral farm? I have been to a real coral farm...I live by one of the top ones in the state. I personally know people that work there...and they skim. I also have had time as a professional diver in several different disciplines, and the ocean does have a skimmer, the wave action makes sea foam and washes it up on shore.

 

[Heathd]

I also have had time as a professional diver in several different disciplines, and the ocean does have a skimmer, the wave action makes sea foam and washes it up on shore.

Mhm, a bubble is nothing more then a protien matrix, which is the whole reason behind why a skimmer works, and agitating water can be had through many different mechanical means. Even ultrasound machines inadvertantly create bubbels in the uterous when developing fetal images.

Its OT, but neat the power a bubble has, since intense ultrasound waves can be used to damage cancerous cells in the body through what is known as cavitation.

 

[Ashlee]

;

 

[Heathd]

No need to be a jerk

But you already proved yourself wrong...

You said you have to dose calcium (elements)

You said you have an extra air pump (oxygenation)

and you already spent 200$ (expense)

And you have to buy food for your corals ( food being stripped)

You validated my whole paragraph.

You can take your ego and shove it where the sun doesn't shine now

No comment

Asking for visual proof of a major reef keeping facility isnt prooving himself wrong.

There is no way you could go without dosing calcium on SPS corals on long interval water changes. Given their hard skeletal structure, they love it.

Cannisters typically dont provide sufficient agitation of water, and neither do skimmers. Hence his oxy supplementation. I think what he was saying is that super high oxy levels arent anything to thump on.

200$ is honestly chicken scratch when it comes to saltwater setups, and cheap when it comes to a skimmer since they can get to high 300's. (Im not saying your skimmer is cheap Fleshy)

Copepods are a treat more then anything else, not sustainable in large tanks. You can't grow enough pods in a fuge to properly feed a well stocked coral tank.


This is turning into a Pee Pee match.




Edit since you edited your message.

A sump is no better then a cannister in this situation because his biological filtration is already more then suffiecient with the LR and sand bed. And for someone who is so concerned about nutrient depeletion, wet-drys are far worse about that then a cannister. Thats a contradictory reccomendation.

And not all softys are as easy to care for as you think.