For the nerd herd: Open Web Floor Joist strength questions

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I don't know how many people will actually understand this thread but it is a great read.
JakeH , You Rock. If I have a question about engineered floor framing components , I know who to ask.:headbang2
 
If I understand correctly you want to put the tank where the sink in the picture is? If so I would think not a good idea because that area is already bearing the load of the stair case and to boot it's not on a load bearing wall.
 
No, the question about that staircase was just my curiosity about how that load is borne since it's like a 16' span that terminates before the load bearing wall. That photo is just the only example I could find of the staircase being along the side (load bearing) wall.
 
If he is still building units, you may want to get in contact with his lumber supplier. The manufacturers of the floor joists employ engineers to design these floor systems. They would be the best person to contact about your situation. a few quick emails could get you an official answer.

When i worked in the lumber business, we would routinely send our plans in to get quotes done. I do remember one case where we had to get a revision done because of a hot tub which required the use of some laminated beams, but that was 600 gallons. youre looking at ~200 gallons which is almost 5 times the weight of a standard bathtub.

all else fails, maybe he can beef up the floor on one of the under construction units for your benefit. im not sure if that fits your goals tho.
 
I say throw a party and have everyone stand in the spot you want your tank and if everyone stays on the second floor your good to go... FYI 1 gallon of water=8.35lbs. Will there be drinks?:cheers:
 
dawnmarie;3903534; said:
I don't know how many people will actually understand this thread but it is a great read.
JakeH , You Rock. If I have a question about engineered floor framing components , I know who to ask.:headbang2


Well, almost... I'm intimately familiar with the engineering concepts, loading & testing of truss structures, but my experience is more geared toward hanging dynamic loads (moving lights, follow-spot chairs, motion controls) from aluminum trusses, which are normally suspended from chain hoists. My post was more about how truss structures in general behave under different loading applications. These pre-fabbed wooden trusses are the kinda the new kid on the block, but they behave the same under a vertical, static load.

DaveB: Sorry bud... I'm not touching that question! You would need the loading specs & testing sheets from the truss manufacturer, plus an inspection of the connections to the load bearing wall, etc. That said, I would think that spot is high on the list of good, stiff spots that wont deflect much & is likely to be a very strong area if the load-bearing wall connections are capable of supporting that same load.

I can also tell you that your question about loading in the "V" or at the apex of the "triangles" is not really relevant. The truss design makes it act as one solid beam, spreading the load from the top chord down through the diagonals, where they transfer it to the bottom chords, which try to deform, in-turn transferring that load back to the diagonals, then back to the top chords. Its like a loop that stiffens itself. Pure genius really...
 
ScottXGTR;3905404; said:
If he is still building units, you may want to get in contact with his lumber supplier. The manufacturers of the floor joists employ engineers to design these floor systems. They would be the best person to contact about your situation. a few quick emails could get you an official answer.

When i worked in the lumber business, we would routinely send our plans in to get quotes done. I do remember one case where we had to get a revision done because of a hot tub which required the use of some laminated beams, but that was 600 gallons. youre looking at ~200 gallons which is almost 5 times the weight of a standard bathtub.

all else fails, maybe he can beef up the floor on one of the under construction units for your benefit. im not sure if that fits your goals tho.


I think this is very good advice from a very wise person with lumber experience... When in doubt, call the P.E.'s!
 
another thing to consider is PLF vs. PSF. most residential buildings are rated for 40psf minimum, and trusses are rated at plf usually.

So, say a 20'x20' room is framed 24" o.c(not uncommon with i-joists). thats 400sq/ft x40psf= 16000lbs that that "room" could hold.

So, in that same room, you have 11 joists(counting both ends) to support that load. You need to figure out the tributary area to see how much load each beam is actually required to carry. A 24" spacing beam will carry 12" of load on the right side and 12" of load on the left side for the center beams. The two end beams only car 12" of load on the room side, and nothing on the wall side.

So for our room, each "typical"(center) joist needs to carry 20'(length)x2'(tributary area, 12" one side 12" other side)= 40sq/ft of space. So 40sq/ftx40psf= 1600 lbs for that one beam to support. Or another way to look at it is 2'x40psf=80 PLF that that beam has to carry.

If that beam is rated at 120 PLF Fy(yielding/min) and 200 PLF Fu(ultimate/max) you have a calculated safety factor of 1.5, which means that joist could support at LEAST 2400lbs before it has any type of yielding/deformation. also, it could potentially support 4000lbs before it completely fails/ruptures. Which means theoretically our 20'x20' room could support 40000lbs before it falls down.

Houses are built with very high safety factors, to the beams used in residential construction could probably support even more load then that.
 
Interesting. That's a lot more than I would ever have guessed that 24" OC would hold.

Scott, that's a great idea. He is always building new places. He took us through one of his new buildings the other night, which we ruled out because the living space in the one that's a few years old is a bit nicer and we prefer the kitchen design. The one of his that we like is a 4th floor unit and we can't do any reinforcing or anything because it has another apartment below it.

The house we like even more isn't built by him, but was built by another Irish builder he says is trustworthy (they all seem to stick together, it seems), but he went back to Ireland and is out of touch. This is the place that is the bottom two floors of the building and has the laundry/utility room on the basement level that could be useful.

Most Chicago bottom units have a living area on the main floor and the basement floor, which is what I wanted when we first started looking. The place I currently rent but never am at (due to being at her place all the time) has this, and I went to great effort to get a 300g glass tank down there only to end up never setting it up. That place has been a money pit for me and the whole reason I got it was basically so I could put up a monster tank. So much for that idea. Anyway, this place ended up being our favorite by a long shot, but it has both living areas upstairs and three bedrooms downstairs. So in the worst case, we could just make a bedroom a fish room. Clearly that's preferable to risking a floor disaster. But if possible, we'd want to put it upstairs since that's where we spend most of the time.

Of course, now very little of this will matter, as it's looking like we won't be getting the mortgage we wanted after all, which prices it out of our budget. So that sticks us back in the single-story place from our landlord/builder, or possibly waiting a year. If we're going to wait a year, though, we may get to do some customization on one of the places he has yet to start building. In that case, you'd better believe we'll get it set up to hold a mega tank wherever I feel it'd look best.

I can also tell you that your question about loading in the "V" or at the apex of the "triangles" is not really relevant. The truss design makes it act as one solid beam, spreading the load from the top chord down through the diagonals, where they transfer it to the bottom chords, which try to deform, in-turn transferring that load back to the diagonals, then back to the top chords. Its like a loop that stiffens itself. Pure genius really...

I understand this and agree about the genius, but I still have a hard time picturing it not sagging a bit if you had something extremely heavy sitting entirely in the space between the points. The open webs are often a 2x3 or something sitting flat, or on its weaker side. I guess it's unlikely that a monster tank would sit entirely between these points, and I couldn't see the design letting it fail, but wouldn't it sag just a bit? Like if I put something really heavy right in between these points?
posistrut1.jpg


Then again, many also have a vertical support there. That would really help a lot.

A lot of these places have 1x1 on the side walls just for nailing the drywall. I can't imagine that'd be a load bearing wall. I'll have to ask the landlord what they use to bear the loads. If it's the cinder block, I would think it'd be fine unless the trimmable section on the end of the truss is super weak. But I doubt it's on block. That's another consideration I hadn't thought of.
 
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