Gar disease & treatment discussion thread
- Thread starter xander
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Was reading over the sticky thread, just wanted to offer a correction for the ammonia posioning thread. In that thread it says
It is actually higher pH values that increase ammonia toxicity.
not sure i have ever heard that it's higher pH that increases ammo-tox, i think that is incorrect. the general trend is that as pH lowers (with waste, etc) ammo-tox increases. i have never had ammo-tox issues increase with higher pH as opposed to lower pH--
--solomon
THe original info is correct.. lower ammonia is toxic.. ie under 5 generally.. but sometimes it may be lower or higher depending on the amount of ammonium built-up in the system.. as the PH plummets the ammonium ( which isn't shown on standard water tests which only test for ammonia) doing is chemistry wooha (scientific info insert here) bonds are created/destroyed ect.. and the ammonium suddenly becomes toxic ammonia again.
PH levels will effect the out-come of an ammonia test. But they are for reading the correct amount(color) to get the correct ammonia reading. From what I understand the ammonia levels are the same within' extreames. Though I wouldn't doubt if excessively high PH values can and will effect ammonia as excessively low ones do. ie if the test tells you your at 1ppm... it's green... comparely that to the tanks ph will give you a more precise reading thats perhaps.. .9 in reality. but there is a very slim margin of inacurracy. if PH is within' the 6.5-7.8 range I've never seen a major difference in ammonia readings within' these perameters. and up to 8.2 and as low as 5.5 I've never seen a truely puzzleing ammonia reading. I have seen a 5.5 ph system that the owner bumped the heat up on for treating Ick to over 85deg and the ammonia readings did show.. that where then back to normal when the temp was dropped back to the 70's range. since there where a few variables not gonna say this the ammonium spiked to ammonia.. But the owner and I both came to the comclusion this was the case. And there hasn't been an ammonia issue with this tank since.
Ammonium often builds up in tanks that have little to no water changes. imo it is a large player in "old Tank syndrome" as it's often refered too. where a system will be just fine for monthes or years... then suddenly the PH will crash and the water quality goes berzerk.
If I'm wrong def wanna know it, and I lack the chem/lab language. someone can expand on that def.. but thats what I know of lower PH values and it's relation to ammonia/ammonium. also quick note on that KH/GH and TDS's also make their mark on low PH ammo tox from my understanding as well.
ps- apparently with my brain going from baby hormones so does my capacity to spell properly.
PH levels will effect the out-come of an ammonia test. But they are for reading the correct amount(color) to get the correct ammonia reading. From what I understand the ammonia levels are the same within' extreames. Though I wouldn't doubt if excessively high PH values can and will effect ammonia as excessively low ones do. ie if the test tells you your at 1ppm... it's green... comparely that to the tanks ph will give you a more precise reading thats perhaps.. .9 in reality. but there is a very slim margin of inacurracy. if PH is within' the 6.5-7.8 range I've never seen a major difference in ammonia readings within' these perameters. and up to 8.2 and as low as 5.5 I've never seen a truely puzzleing ammonia reading. I have seen a 5.5 ph system that the owner bumped the heat up on for treating Ick to over 85deg and the ammonia readings did show.. that where then back to normal when the temp was dropped back to the 70's range. since there where a few variables not gonna say this the ammonium spiked to ammonia.. But the owner and I both came to the comclusion this was the case. And there hasn't been an ammonia issue with this tank since.
Ammonium often builds up in tanks that have little to no water changes. imo it is a large player in "old Tank syndrome" as it's often refered too. where a system will be just fine for monthes or years... then suddenly the PH will crash and the water quality goes berzerk.
If I'm wrong def wanna know it, and I lack the chem/lab language. someone can expand on that def.. but thats what I know of lower PH values and it's relation to ammonia/ammonium. also quick note on that KH/GH and TDS's also make their mark on low PH ammo tox from my understanding as well.
ps- apparently with my brain going from baby hormones so does my capacity to spell properly.
What your talking about seems more like old water with a large buildup of waste, rather than fresh water with a naturally low pH value.
That is a far better source than what I came across but here are some other links also saying the same thing:
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html
http://www.dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html
http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm
Sorry but I had a hard time following this. From my understanding though lower pH value cause ammonium to be formed in place of ammonia. With ammonium being less toxic to fish. As the pH raises the ammonium changes to ammonia.
i'll have to read through the links later...i think we may be getting into chemical detail vs. practical applications...there are also a lot of factors involved and i do not want to imply that pH and ammo are directly related all the time or that other factors are not involved.
in short, and this again isn't a direct relationship all the time, if you have a low pH system, you will run a higher risk of ammo-tox because the system has less buffering capacity and the lower pH allows for ammo-tox to be a bigger issue/more dangerous to the fishes. at higher pH, or at least with better buffering capacity, it buys you more time and combats fluctuations in pH which can really wreak havoc on some gars or YOY gars.
again, i'm relating this to gars...i don't work with low-pH systems (which i know are good for some other fishes). since the pinned topic in question refers to gars, i think we should keep it focused on the practical info for that group...otherwise people are going to be thinking low pH is ok and has no problems in terms of ammo-tox...and that is not the case.
with gars, maintain a higher or neutral pH (preferably well-buffered), and you will be in better shape than keeping them in low pH systems. this is even clearer with CBGs than other species, but other gars seem to do well this way too--
--solomon
in short, and this again isn't a direct relationship all the time, if you have a low pH system, you will run a higher risk of ammo-tox because the system has less buffering capacity and the lower pH allows for ammo-tox to be a bigger issue/more dangerous to the fishes. at higher pH, or at least with better buffering capacity, it buys you more time and combats fluctuations in pH which can really wreak havoc on some gars or YOY gars.
again, i'm relating this to gars...i don't work with low-pH systems (which i know are good for some other fishes). since the pinned topic in question refers to gars, i think we should keep it focused on the practical info for that group...otherwise people are going to be thinking low pH is ok and has no problems in terms of ammo-tox...and that is not the case.
with gars, maintain a higher or neutral pH (preferably well-buffered), and you will be in better shape than keeping them in low pH systems. this is even clearer with CBGs than other species, but other gars seem to do well this way too--
--solomon
I had a florida gar around 4 years ago that died of some sort of sickness. It had a pink bulge that began to come out of its anus, and it's posterior end would float, making it hard for the gar to swim underneath the surface to catch food, it was eating and had control over its fins. But its caudel fin and sorsal fin were constantly above the water surface. It eventually died but I still do not know what may have caused it. Then, around a year ago I had a Hujeta Pike (Ctenolujus hujeta) die something very similar, if not the same thing. Please tell me what this is and how I can prevent it.
I posted this in another thread today, sorry. Gar was sick (never able to figure out cause/illness). Treated with Melafix, his skin looks normal but now won't eat.
