It can be 1 in the same Sbuse ...My Grandfather once told me a saying when i was a Boy and it stuck with me (CHEAP IS NOT GOOD AND GOOD IS NOT CHEAP )
General Stingray Price List
- Thread starter Pazzoman
- Start date
Everyone makes valid points. But the biggest issue I see is a very very limited market. There isn't many true Ray keeping hobbyist that are committed to the long term aspect of the hobby. It's a limited number of us who are into keeping rays long term. Sure there are new ray keepers who come into the hobby and even some older. But how many are in it for the long term, what percentage? Not very high if you ask me. I am sure there is quite a few who buy a pup, it either dies, they get tired of it or find that its not what they expected or wanted and move on to a different type of fish. Or just flat out don't want to put in the time and money to maintain larger setups with more stringent requirements.
So with that being said, how many breeders do you actually think are going to be able to stay in it for a profitable interest. Not many. There isn't a whole lot of breeders out there and even those that are breeding don't move them as fast as they would like.
More breeders vying for a very limited market...................... Thats why any importer who only imported rays as a profitable business eventually go under because with private breeders they can't maintain a profitable enterprise. Limited Market/Not enough Demand. Sure you can drop the cost of rays down to next to nothing but the requirements to keep rays is so much more that it limits the number of potential customers and always will.
One thing I noticed over the years is everyone and there brother thinks they can be a vendor, lfs, importer or breeder. Just look at the MFK vendor forum. How many there is now, all competing for the same customers on this board. Most with the same stock, probably buying from the same exporters or wholesalers. Honestly its nothing I would even want to deal with.
If and when my rays breed look for me to blow them out the door, I have no interest in trying to recoup money invested in this hobby. 27 years in this hobby and I can guarantee I am in the hole money wise. But I am rich for the knowledge, friendships and pure joy that it has brought me.
So with that being said, how many breeders do you actually think are going to be able to stay in it for a profitable interest. Not many. There isn't a whole lot of breeders out there and even those that are breeding don't move them as fast as they would like.
More breeders vying for a very limited market...................... Thats why any importer who only imported rays as a profitable business eventually go under because with private breeders they can't maintain a profitable enterprise. Limited Market/Not enough Demand. Sure you can drop the cost of rays down to next to nothing but the requirements to keep rays is so much more that it limits the number of potential customers and always will.
One thing I noticed over the years is everyone and there brother thinks they can be a vendor, lfs, importer or breeder. Just look at the MFK vendor forum. How many there is now, all competing for the same customers on this board. Most with the same stock, probably buying from the same exporters or wholesalers. Honestly its nothing I would even want to deal with.
If and when my rays breed look for me to blow them out the door, I have no interest in trying to recoup money invested in this hobby. 27 years in this hobby and I can guarantee I am in the hole money wise. But I am rich for the knowledge, friendships and pure joy that it has brought me.
you make a valid point for sure ..There are some who are only interested in producing the best of the best!!! surely people that produce nothing but the best never ever recupe their investment EVER although i am sure it is nice to to see someone pay for what they think is the Best That i think is the pay off gentlemen
It can be 1 in the same Sbuse ...My Grandfather once told me a saying when i was a Boy and it stuck with me (CHEAP IS NOT GOOD AND GOOD IS NOT CHEAP )
That can be true. I have heard that same saying from my grandfather. The thing that I have noticed is this is a new age. The same quality they paid premium for doesn't exist. A lot of things the cheaper are made stronger then the high end. High end now a days gets to focused on show and lose the point.
It is a limited market. That is why we need to bring down the costs how ever possible for us in the market. The large scale might not be able to happen everywhere. That is why it is more of a spare time with all the species. If you have a main job and don't make it you sole income you can flood the market then take a break. Or space out the release of pups and do it in a series of groups. If your doing it with all species you can rotate your breeding focuses and time them with the off seasons for imports and still be able to make it happen. That way you'll always have something going on and coming in but your not limited to Leos or bd or pearl. Like I have been saying there is the smart way to go about this as a serious breeder that can deliver quantity, quality and affordability.
In short you need multiple breeding projects to be successful. That is my goal. I am starting with black rays and discus. Then I'll expand to more. Gotta have a plan and a main source of income first. I am actually running a store right now. That has pushed me to condense my personal stock and focus on a few fish. That has caused my personal collection to shift 99% to rays and discus. I will have a vendor section here. I have a different approach then most and I have a completely different supplier for the main focus I'll be running. I know because this is a direct import the the country with him. The key to running long term stores is to find a focus point with a large market and stick with it. Otherwise you'll wind up stuck and shutting down. I locally started with oddballs, found out first hand that valuable lesson.
you make a valid point for sure ..There are some who are only interested in producing the best of the best!!! surely people that produce nothing but the best never ever recupe their investment EVER although i am sure it is nice to to see someone pay for what they think is the Best That i think is the pay off gentlemen
I agree. My whole point is that we shouldn't have to take out a second mortgage to have the best. Also there are so many variations to the best that is why the mass production works. You can give a mix of options at low prices.
Everyone can say they want to do something. Most are just fantasy. The fact is most people are to lazy and have a serious lack of vision to accomplish the goals they set. That is why 99% of the "I will build/buy x" never happen. Almost all the reasons given for not getting it done are excuses, nothing more. For me it is not if but rather when.
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As stated well already... livestock breeding... Is rarely if ever profitable... if it was everyone would be doing it.. unless you are breeding massive amounts to cover overheads ect. of a quality animal no breeder worth their salt of any animal I've ever run into (horses, dogs, cats, fish) make a "profit" unless they are very good at what they do, and raise a substantial amount of QUALITY animals. Most are lucky to make ends meet or break even.
If you get 3-5 rays with the ideas your going to make a profit ( cover the cost of care/feeding/ect) you're insane or you have VERY desirable quality animals to sell.
CB/WC... imo all depends on if you want a pet or a breeder... I don't believe in breeding "pet" quality animals or breeding for the sake of breeding ( ie low quality animals allowed to breed) If your going to put a male and a female together and "hope to breed them" your not doing the species a favor if they are siblings or geneticly flawed imo ( I know many who disagree with me) I don't even agree w/ hybridizing even though much of its is done by careful selective breeding ( much as how FH's ect have been developed, there is aplace in the trade for them.. just not my personal tanks)
OP as to your question about CB retics I know of one member who has successfully bred hers and posted her success' here.. i'm sure there are others but oddly they seem to be one of the least CB rays around. I remain hopefully my female is bred again ( fairly confident a disease in my tank that killed another ray caused her to absorb/abort her would have been first litter) There are mature ones in people collections... but the "high end rays" are the cats meow around here...
If you get 3-5 rays with the ideas your going to make a profit ( cover the cost of care/feeding/ect) you're insane or you have VERY desirable quality animals to sell.
CB/WC... imo all depends on if you want a pet or a breeder... I don't believe in breeding "pet" quality animals or breeding for the sake of breeding ( ie low quality animals allowed to breed) If your going to put a male and a female together and "hope to breed them" your not doing the species a favor if they are siblings or geneticly flawed imo ( I know many who disagree with me) I don't even agree w/ hybridizing even though much of its is done by careful selective breeding ( much as how FH's ect have been developed, there is aplace in the trade for them.. just not my personal tanks)
OP as to your question about CB retics I know of one member who has successfully bred hers and posted her success' here.. i'm sure there are others but oddly they seem to be one of the least CB rays around. I remain hopefully my female is bred again ( fairly confident a disease in my tank that killed another ray caused her to absorb/abort her would have been first litter) There are mature ones in people collections... but the "high end rays" are the cats meow around here...
I have talked about breeding silver aros and black aros. I still will be attempting to. Not in a 180gal though. I don't recall ever saying I wanted to in a 180gal. I was using my 180 for a retic project. I was growing them out in it. I had issues with that group. I sold the last two females of the group after my male died. Those retics came from tfd. It was doomed from the order placement. All those rays came in poor condition.
I got a male hystrix that is mature. I have him sold right now. I may see if the person wants a male Motoro instead as I still would like to breed hystrix. I am focusing on black rays to start so I may just let him go and try again later with them.
My bdxLeo is originally from mike at h20. If I remember right he started with wild fish. My bdxpearl I believe is imported, I'll find that out. It is my friends ray and i am getting it from him also. I am getting some others from an in country source as well. I will also import at least one pair of bd. I may get a Netherlands female bd to have in the mix as well. All rays I have for the project I will have the full history behind.
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For me just because a ray is cheap means nothing
Black rays can carry on getting new spots in later life some even get new spots as late as 8 years old
I used to sell all my pups at a young age at a cheap price Leo/bd £300-350 depending on litter size
P14/Leo £450-500
At the small 3-4 month age its very hard to tell what they will turn out like but its the risk you take for paying cheap
There is some much better looking hybrids on the market now and a lot of them are better looking than the higher end bd
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Black rays can carry on getting new spots in later life some even get new spots as late as 8 years old
I used to sell all my pups at a young age at a cheap price Leo/bd £300-350 depending on litter size
P14/Leo £450-500
At the small 3-4 month age its very hard to tell what they will turn out like but its the risk you take for paying cheap
There is some much better looking hybrids on the market now and a lot of them are better looking than the higher end bd
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Which is why I have been saying there should be no reason why they are as high priced as they are.
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I still spend way more on my rays then i will ever make back. Food, electric, water, not to mention Always updating pumps, filters, air pumps, etc.
If the leo market ever goes below 800 ea i will be down grading to one tank. The only way i can house 6 adult rays is by recouping some food money by selling the pups.
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If the leo market ever goes below 800 ea i will be down grading to one tank. The only way i can house 6 adult rays is by recouping some food money by selling the pups.
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