GOLD/EBJD MIX what do you think?
- Thread starter Blankmanrl
- Start date
Leucism is a reduction in all types of skin pigment, while I believe the blue morph is an over production of blue chromatophores. So it could very well have both expressed at once.
It's my thought that this is indeed a separate color morph from the wild, EBJD, and gold morphs around. If the mutations are on different alleles and expressed independently of course.
Most genetics don't follow simple Mendelian genetics.
It's my thought that this is indeed a separate color morph from the wild, EBJD, and gold morphs around. If the mutations are on different alleles and expressed independently of course.
Most genetics don't follow simple Mendelian genetics.
I agree a single specimen could have the genetic mutation that causes the Blue coloration and the genetic mutation that causes Leucism (Gold)...
But (I believe) the "lack of pigmentation" of the Leucism will wash out the "abundance of blue pigment" of Blue Dempseys...
"Chromatophores" are cells that contain pigment and/or reflect light... So an over production of blue chromatophores means an over production of blue pigmentation...
But (I believe) the "lack of pigmentation" of the Leucism will wash out the "abundance of blue pigment" of Blue Dempseys...
"Chromatophores" are cells that contain pigment and/or reflect light... So an over production of blue chromatophores means an over production of blue pigmentation...
Toby - good to see you chime in here...
We need to be careful if we assume that Gold Dempseys are leucistic and label them as such. They lack the normal amount of dark pigments, but still display yellows, reds, and blue/green spotting. If the gold JD's completely lacked any blue/green coloring, then I would buy your hypothesis, but that is not the case. All these color forms are due to a mutation in a gene (or genes) that trigger an outward change in appearance. If the normal wild population is devoid of these color forms, it is likely that they appeared in captive populations due to a single gene mutation. If these mutations are on separate genes, then there should be nothing to stop them from mutually expressing. The golds breed like a single gene mutation. The EB gene is a little more complicated because it can lead to a lethal situation when two EB's are crossed in that the fry don't survive. This could be due to the amount of energy put into making the blue pigments or even the high level of blue pigments being toxic to the fish leading to the deformities and other things noted with breeding EBJDs.
The idea of combining gold & EB genes in one fish is no different than what is done with the flowerhorn Super Red Texas, where they bring two fish together where one has the gene to supress brown pigments as an adult and the other has a gene to express blue spotting. I am in no way suggesting golds or EB JD's are hybrids, just trying to build on a known color phenomenon in cichlids.
This is all fun to talk about - but time will tell if 74ray has successfully combined both of these color forms.
Regards,
Patrick
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." - Chinese proverb
We need to be careful if we assume that Gold Dempseys are leucistic and label them as such. They lack the normal amount of dark pigments, but still display yellows, reds, and blue/green spotting. If the gold JD's completely lacked any blue/green coloring, then I would buy your hypothesis, but that is not the case. All these color forms are due to a mutation in a gene (or genes) that trigger an outward change in appearance. If the normal wild population is devoid of these color forms, it is likely that they appeared in captive populations due to a single gene mutation. If these mutations are on separate genes, then there should be nothing to stop them from mutually expressing. The golds breed like a single gene mutation. The EB gene is a little more complicated because it can lead to a lethal situation when two EB's are crossed in that the fry don't survive. This could be due to the amount of energy put into making the blue pigments or even the high level of blue pigments being toxic to the fish leading to the deformities and other things noted with breeding EBJDs.
The idea of combining gold & EB genes in one fish is no different than what is done with the flowerhorn Super Red Texas, where they bring two fish together where one has the gene to supress brown pigments as an adult and the other has a gene to express blue spotting. I am in no way suggesting golds or EB JD's are hybrids, just trying to build on a known color phenomenon in cichlids.
This is all fun to talk about - but time will tell if 74ray has successfully combined both of these color forms.
Regards,
Patrick
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." - Chinese proverb
As noted in the other thread...
Leucism is not "a genetic mutation"... it is a description of the result of any genetic mutation(s) that causes a reduction in pigmentation...
Leucism isn't the cause, it's the obseved effect...
While we can see some pigment related coloration in Gold Dempseys, they are quite reduced... The refractive coloration should be noted as the effect of "light reflecting" cells not in any way related to pigment...
But none the less, as I said earlier in this thread, I commend him (74Ray) for the efforts it took to do this project. I'm definitely not standing in his way nor discouraging anyone from buying the fish he's producing...
I came to this conclusion several years ago which is why I didn't pursue this approach. But I am very eager to see these fish mature to see if my prediction was accurate...
Time will tell... cheers...
Leucism is not "a genetic mutation"... it is a description of the result of any genetic mutation(s) that causes a reduction in pigmentation...
Leucism isn't the cause, it's the obseved effect...
While we can see some pigment related coloration in Gold Dempseys, they are quite reduced... The refractive coloration should be noted as the effect of "light reflecting" cells not in any way related to pigment...
But none the less, as I said earlier in this thread, I commend him (74Ray) for the efforts it took to do this project. I'm definitely not standing in his way nor discouraging anyone from buying the fish he's producing...
I came to this conclusion several years ago which is why I didn't pursue this approach. But I am very eager to see these fish mature to see if my prediction was accurate...
Time will tell... cheers...
NC's argument is essentially "if you are bold you are not going to have brown hair". My thought too, but the assumption is that the two genes function in a linear pathway.
blue and gold are mutations in two different genes. When you cross a EBJD and a gold JD, all F1s look like regular JD. They fully complement each other, which means they are not allelic.
And btw, all genetic inheritance follow simple Mendel's Laws
Modest_Man;4121152; said:
blue and gold are mutations in two different genes. When you cross a EBJD and a gold JD, all F1s look like regular JD. They fully complement each other, which means they are not allelic.
And btw, all genetic inheritance follow simple Mendel's Laws
There's an important issue that hasn't been addressed.
These individuals might look different, but it's not the point.
The point is that they are different because they are double homozygotes for both the blue and the gold mutations.
Without any molecular markers to genotype them, the only way to confirm this is to do some test crosses to EBJDs (all F1s should be "regular EBJDs") and golds (all F1s should be golds).
So you are really one generation away from knowing the "truth".....
These individuals might look different, but it's not the point.
The point is that they are different because they are double homozygotes for both the blue and the gold mutations.
Without any molecular markers to genotype them, the only way to confirm this is to do some test crosses to EBJDs (all F1s should be "regular EBJDs") and golds (all F1s should be golds).
So you are really one generation away from knowing the "truth".....
auratum;4121414; said:
I don't think these are likely explanations. The defects seen in F1s from an EBJDxEBJD cross are largely parental - their are genotypically identical to EB progenies from an EBJDxBGJD cross, or a BGJDxBGJD cross. In other words, the defects are not simply due to the fact that they are homozygous for the blue gene.
This is an interesting case that I haven't thought through. Maybe I should write it into an exam and see what comes up
auratum;4121414; said:
I cannot agree with this assessment. A distinction should be made between interspecific and interspecific crosses. Perhaps fancy angel fish breeding is a better analogy.
nc_nutcase;4121718; said:
From my limited observations of Gold Dempsey's (raising 6 fish from 1" to adult) I don't see their color pattern fitting exactly in any of the terms being thrown around. Albino does not fit as they don't have pink eyes. Leucistic doesn't fit based on the definitions I have read that talks about lacking all color pigments - which is not the case as they still show yellow/gold in the body & fins, red/pink in the body & fins, and the blue/green spangling in the body & fins. Xanthism doesn't completely fit either as this is suggested to be a replacement of red pigments with yellow, and there is definitely still red pigments in Gold JD's. While Gold JD's do seem to show somewhat less blue/green I believe this is due to the reduced contrast with the lighter background on the fish.
