Goldfish are Nutritious

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sjkoi

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jun 11, 2009
60
0
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California
There, I said it. This has bothered me for sometime because I have fed feeder goldfish for years with great results. I use goldfish as an example, but this comment would apply to all the feeder fish as well. Using dried, frozen or commercially prepared diets is a ridiculous alternative to live foods. As I have researched the issue it is clear that the common wisdom concerning feeder fish is all wet. I invite an honest discussion of the facts and "best science" available.:D
 
I've got a couple comments. First off
1. using feeder goldfish can be very risky if you dont quarentine them for proper time first.
2. Gold fish are very fatty, and contain thiaminase which isn't good for your fish

I feed my native fish, native caught minnows so all is well here.
 
What is your reasoning saying this, just because you have had luck with no diseases. Feeders are good only when you raise them yourself otherwise your taking a big risk plus aren't goldifsh very fatty?
 
1) Nutrition-Wise:
Try as I might I didn't run across any scientific work describing the chemical & physical content of "feeders". However, I'd like to offer some anecdotal 'evidence'... Over many years as a hobbyist, businessperson and academic-type witnessing some livestock almost exclusively fed feeders, it is my opinion that these situations were detrimental/not as beneficial as alternative foods and feeding.
That is to write, there is less vitality, fecundity, survivability of young with the use of 'feeders', seemingly a greater incidence of necrotic wasting 'diseases' like "hole in the head" & "lateral line disease"; and increased incidence and less resistance to infectious and parasitic diseases. Much more about the latter later.
2) Cost:
They're what? five, ten twelve or so to a dollar? How much is that a pound? More than you'd pay for steak for yourself? Over the life-time of the livestock, what total cost? Amazing, isn't it? Compare this with the alternatives detailed below. Feeding feeders is notcheap; and what about the gas, wear and tear on your vehicle & your time?
3) Parasitic & Infectious Diseases:
Back in the seventies when disco, Lennon and the U.S. economy were alive I paid my debt to society. Yes, dear reader, I taught High School; chemistry, physics and biology. For life sciences the curriculum included a one to few day's pitch on parasitism as a sub-topic of relations between species. What did we use as our 'host' organism? You guessed it; 'feeder' comets. They never failed. Invariably they wouldn't disappoint, with eight, ten, twelve or more of the most common true fungi, bacteria, protozoa (Tetrahymena, Costia, Ichthyophthirius, Amyloodinium, various sporozoans), diverse worms (leeches, nematodes, acanthocephalans), crustaceans (Argulus, Lernaea) and many more in great profusion.
Not surprisingly, many of these later show up in your system and on & in your livestock from... tah-day, the feeders.
I'd like to mention another type of "disease", environmental; from comet feedings I've seen time and time again: Death from "gut blockage" in particular in lionfishes and their relatives. There is a tendency for feeder 'skulls' (crania) to block over the opening from the stomach to the intestine in this group. From necropsying enough scorpionfishes to fill a fish store I would guess "feeder blockage syndrome" as their single largest source of mortality.
4) Behavior Mod.:
Shades of B.F. Skinner putting his fish in a (glass) box! Does feeding live foods/feeders make fish "meaner"? Many folks I've talked with consider it so. I've seen scenarios where a population of smaller and larger 'community' fishes more or less peacefully co-existed until they 'learned' they could eat each other through feeder use. Yes, I do believe it, I do believe it's true.
And another thing... have seen wanna-be predators totally diffed, torn up, shredded thrashing after a tasty bit of gold.
Alternatives: Fresh, Frozen, 'Pellets':
They're cheaper, easier to get, keep and use, more nutritionally sound and don't spread disease; they're winners!
Fresh or frozen, cut or whole, irradiated, flash frozen or no, fishes, crustaceans, mollusks and more are great.
The new prepared foods likewise are nutritionally complete and readily accepted by all species. If you can stomach another unsolicited not-so-thinly-disguised product endorsement, here goes. The new Tetra (tm) Jumbo Min and Hikari (tm) Floating Food Sticks are touted as "feeder replacements". I think they're even better. Check them out. both are less money and more convenient than 'live bait'.
There is no seeming end to prepared & 'formulated' frozen (defrost before using) foods.
Training:
"But my fish(es) won't accept their food unless it's moving". Malarkey. I've never yet come across a case where feeders had to be fed.
Once accustomed to their use, it may take some effort and patience to wean them off, but it can be done. At first this may involve an intermittent offering of feeders/non-feeders, some lengthy fasting (they won't die from it), use of a feeding rod/tool mimicking live food movements.
Be un-hasty; your charges won't kick for lack of feeders and they will eventually eat.
If you must feed live feeders, feed them sparingly, of the appropriate size, and do what you can (dips, quarantine) to reduce the incidence of disease transmission.
My Conclusion:
In other parts of the world I've been, sophisticated areas of the Far East and Western Europe, their is little to no use of colored, epoxy-coated gravel, substrate filtration, burping ornaments, and 'feeders'.
Oh, what an ignominious end for the only (sport mutation) variety of goldfish originated in the U.S. of A.. Do yourself, you livestock and comets a favor and use alternatives


-Bob Fenner
 
Goldfish and Rosy red minnows contain high quantities of thiaminase, an enzyme that destroys vitamin B1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B1 and when fed in large quantities cause nutritional imbalances. That being said, if it's working for you and your fish aren't getting HITH, go for it. My only other concern would be with goldfish from a fish store. If you're raising your own, you shouldn't have much worry about infection or parasites. I don't think I can say the same about most of the tanks I've seen them in at fish stores.
 
wait wait wait........why should anyone offer the flip side of the argument when the original poster didn't share a single fact or theory, he just mouuthed off some lame opinion without anything to support it.


please explain why you THINK goldfish and rosey reds are great for your fish so there's actually something to debate.
 
wait wait wait........why should anyone offer the flip side of the argument when the original poster didn't share a single fact or theory, he just mouuthed off some lame opinion without anything to support it.


please explain why you THINK goldfish and rosey reds are great for your fish so there's actually something to debate.

Okay, wow. Let me get the kids to bed and I'll try to tackle one issue at a time starting with the fallacy that feeder goldfish are "fatty". I did find a scientific reference to the nutritional profile of feeder goldfish, but I don't want to just focus on this one species of fish. Tomorrow I'll take a whack at thiaminase. Very interesting topic. Let's keep it civil though. I truly have no intent on just mouthing off here. Some of the facts I'll need to support my statements may take a little longer to get my fingers on, and unfortunately there is not a lot of good science out there on these topics so anecdotal evidence sometimes can't be completely dismissed as irrelevant. What I do know from past posts here, the data presented to date is insufficient to support the common conclusion that feeder fish are bad or dangerous. There are downsides that need to be considered, but I can see that we won't need any help in pointing those out so I'll take the responsibility of arguing the pros;).
 
Okay, wow. Let me get the kids to bed and I'll try to tackle one issue at a time starting with the fallacy that feeder goldfish are "fatty". I did find a scientific reference to the nutritional profile of feeder goldfish, but I don't want to just focus on this one species of fish. Tomorrow I'll take a whack at thiaminase. Very interesting topic. Let's keep it civil though. I truly have no intent on just mouthing off here. Some of the facts I'll need to support my statements may take a little longer to get my fingers on, and unfortunately there is not a lot of good science out there on these topics so anecdotal evidence sometimes can't be completely dismissed as irrelevant. What I do know from past posts here, the data presented to date is insufficient to support the common conclusion that feeder fish are bad or dangerous. There are downsides that need to be considered, but I can see that we won't need any help in pointing those out so I'll take the responsibility of arguing the pros;).

just get your facts together and ready to present before you open a thread man. i'll be checkin back later for the laughs
 
What do you need to know about me? I want to debate the merits based off the "best science". I have a wealth of personal experience on this topic, have done some research, I have talked with one of the leading experts on thiaminase in the Country to verify some of the rosey explanations I've heard elsewhere, and I think there is a lot to hash out. Last year I read a post that compared feeder goldfish to a filet of catfish and that became the basis for the belief that feeders are "fatty". Come on. I think we all deserve a better analysis than that. I am ready to learn, and there is a wealth of qualified individuals here that I'd like to hear from. That is why I am posting.
 
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