Goldfish are Nutritious

[sjkoi]

Like I said, there is lots and lots that can be written about the effects of processing and cooking food. You can "replace" naturally occurring vitamins in food with manufactured ones to compensate for what was lost in processing. You can't rebuild certain amino acids and enzymes. Once cooked their potency is greatly reduced or lost entirely. Nothing to debate here. Some pellets can provide adequate nutrition (most don't), just not excellent nutrition. Koi breeders have known this for 100's of years and even when using the most expensive advanced diets in the world, and the natural advantages that koi have in digesting plant material, when it comes time to pick between pellets and a natural diet for a $250,000 fish, the best breeders use a natural diet for robust growth.

The quote below relates to raw milk. Milk is a rich source of protein and the effects of pasteurizing are well understood.

From: http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/raw_milk_health_benefits.html

Raw cow's milk has all 8 essential amino acids in varying amounts, depending on stage of lactation (8). About 80% of the proteins in milk are caseins- reasonably heat stable and, for most, easy to digest. The remaining 20% or so are classed as whey proteins, many of which have important physiological effects (bioactivity) (9). Also easy to digest, but very heat-sensitive (10), these include key enzymes (11) (specialized proteins) and enzyme inhibitors, immunoglobulins (antibodies) (12), metal-binding proteins, vitamin binding proteins and several growth factors.

 

[Bderick67]

kool, gonna start making my fish drink raw cow's milk

 

[RD.]

You can't rebuild certain amino acids and enzymes. Once cooked their potency is greatly reduced or lost entirely. Nothing to debate here.

The world according to Rich.



Then we have reality.........


From the NRC Nutrient Requirements of Fish 1993, basically the bible of fish nutrition.

"Amino acids, several vitamins, and inorganic nutrients are relatively stable to heat, moisture, and oxidation that occur under normal processing and storage conditions. Some of the vitamins are subject to some loss, however, and should be used in excess of the requirement."

Think of it this way, if one poaches an egg in water, does that mean that the amino acid (protein) of that egg has no value? Of course not, cooking the egg may change the structure of those amino acids, but those amino acids are certainly still bio-available. I don't know anyone that eats raw eggs, usually due to the fact that uncooked eggs can carry certain pathogens. We "cook" them to destroy harmful pathogens, not to destroy the nutrient value.


Seeing as we are now using "human" nutrition as a comparison.


Here's a comment on this subject from a well known world class M.D.


RAW FOOD: DON'T DESTROY THE ENZYMES?

Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

Don't believe claims that cooking destroys the nutritional value of your food, or that you must take enzyme pills to replace the enzymes lost in cooking.


One popular author says that heating food above 118 degrees destroys 50 percent of the protein in our food, 50 percent of vitamins, and 80 percent of minerals, and all of the enzymes. These statements are nonsense. Protein and minerals are not destroyed by heat. Some vitamins are lost in cooking, but you still get plenty if you have a reasonably varied diet. The enzymes in food that are destroyed by heat are of no use to you anyway; you make your own enzymes for digestion of your food.

In your stomach and intestines, food is separated into carbohydrates, fats and proteins. Then enzymes made by your body break the carbohydrates, fats and proteins into their building blocks, and only these building blocks can be absorbed into your bloodstream. Enzymes in foods have no function in your body because they are treated like any other protein that you eat. Enzymes in foods are broken down into the building blocks of protein called amino acids in your intestines, so it makes no difference whether or not they are broken down by cooking.

The only common enzyme problem is lack of intestinal lactase that breaks down the double sugar in milk, which can cause diarrhea and cramping when you eat dairy products. You do not need to take enzyme pills unless you suffer from chronic diarrhea or severe weight loss, and the enzymes that may be prescribed for these conditions are copies of enzymes that your body makes, not the enzymes that are found in foods.



And the Dr.'s credentials ......

Dr. Gabe Mirkin is a graduate of Harvard University and Baylor University College of Medicine. He is one of a very few doctors board-certified in four specialties: Sports Medicine, Allergy and Immunology, Pediatrics and Pediatric Immunology.

Dr. Mirkin's latest book is The Healthy Heart Miracle, published by HarperCollins. He wrote the chapter on sports injuries for the Merck Manual (both lay and physicians' editions), the largest selling book worldwide with over one million copies in print. His daily short features on fitness have been heard on CBS Radio News stations since the 1970's. He has written 16books including The Sportsmedicine Book, the best-selling book on the subject that has been translated into many languages.

Dr. Mirkin did his residency at the Massachusetts General Hospital and over the years he has served as a Teaching Fellow at Johns Hopkins Medical School, Assistant Professor at the University of Maryland, and Associate Clinical Professor in Pediatrics at the Georgetown University School of Medicine.



And just like humans, fish produce their own enzymes for digesting their food.


BTW - every year people die from drinking raw cows milk, just like fish die from eating sick feeders.

 

[sjkoi]

The effect of sterilisation on amino acid contents in processed cheeseFrantišek Buňka[SUP]a[/SUP][SUP],

[/SUP][SUP], [/SUP][SUP][/SUP], Jan Hrabě[SUP]a[/SUP], Stanislav Kráčmar[SUP]b[/SUP][TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD][SUP]a[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Department of Food Engineering, Tomas Bata University, nám. T.G.Masaryka 588, Zlin 760 01, Czech Republic[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD][SUP]b[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Department of Nutrition, Mendel University of Agriculture and Forestry, Zemědělská 1, Brno 601 00, Czech Republic[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Received 19 June 2003; Accepted 23 February 2004. Available online 26 April 2004.

Abstract:

In this study the effect of sterilization (117°C, 20 min) on changes of amino acid contents in processed cheese was investigated. This heat treatment caused statistically significant losses of the amino acids Cys, Met, Leu, Arg, Asp, Ser, Ala, Lys, His, Glu and Ile in the protein fraction. The contents of Thr, Pro, Tyr, Val and Phe were not effected significantly by the sterilization. An increase in ammonia content in sterilized processed cheese was observed.

 

[sjkoi]

How much vitality is lost with pellets? It's debatable obviously, but some percentage is. Here is another of many references:


Amino acids, peptides, and proteins, Volume 32
By J. S. Davies, Royal Society of Chemistry (Great Britain)


General Reactions of Amino Acids.

Thermal Stability of Amino Acids. Thermal degradation of amino acids requires investigation, not only for its obvious importance in food science, but also so that problems that arise in amino acid sampling for analysis may be understood. Controversy has arisen over claims that amino acids can be sublimed unchanged since there have been many reports over the years of self-condensation and other changes to amino acids at elevated temperatures… Loss of serine and threonine is complete after samples are held for 4h at 120 C or for 7 min at 300 C, leading to pyrazines among other products.

 

[RD.]

More junk science. None of those temps or durations would generally ever be used for processing fish food, most certainly not the food that I feed my fish. 4h at 120 C, or 7 min at 300 C - :WTF:

And I'm almost certain that most fish foods do not contain cheese curds.




I think that the real question at hand should be how many amino acids are present, and at what levels, when one barbecues an Oscar Meyer, vs eating the same weiner fresh.

 

[Rivermud]

Ahhh, he never ending debate that only 2 people care about.. the funny thing is that everyone keeps checking in to see if anything useful has been posted. to be honest, sjkoi, you come off as arrogant and condescending. To speak of others involved in the discussion as having a low attention span etc points out your own character flaws in this so called discussion. As for anybody else arguing with you over the merits of this argument they are showing their own character by simply not acknowledging that the discussion is no longer useful.

To be very honest with you both, there is a reason we feed pellets. There is a reason we feed feeder fish. Store bought feeder fish (which btw is the only way most of us can get them) are not healthy for out fish for a number of reasons, not the least their propensity for disease. We feed pellets because they provide the proper nutrition for our fishes needs.. is either one prime??? no.. so just give it up.. seriously.. i check this thread in hope someone will provide anything other than the jibberrish we already have heard.. so please give it a rest.. seriously.. neither one of you is going to change the others mind, and nobody else is either

 

[jray33]

#1 reason i hear peoples fish dying.... is from disease got from feeding feeder goldfish. Period. i have delt with hundreds of consumers over a span of 5 years and the best advice i could give someone new to the hobby...
Stay the hell away from feeder goldfish. Feeding live fish being bred, grown, raised and sold in tanks with fish numbering the thousands, is only inviting disease into your tank. Even good water quality isnt going to save your fish if your feeder goldfish has mouth fungus or ich. Thats not even touching nutrition. I dont have a problem with feeding live stock breed and grown yourself if you know the fish is healthy but the only way i feel at all confident that i am not introducing parasites, disease, and lots of scales from dead fish, into my aquarium is to not feed live feeder.
You like feeding feeders? Thats your prerogative
From my experience, fish raised on goldfish show less color, vitality, survivability rate and more disease and aggression than on pellets. Debate it all you want goldfish are not the way to go

 

[sjkoi]

Fish disease. Is a valid reason not to use feeders and I assume that when RD and I are down hashing out the nutrition issue the discussion will turn this direction. I am sorry this is thread is such a slog but I personally have found it educational and RD's counter points helpful in strengthening my own logic. Live feed vs. a commercial diet. Its a big topic and goes beyond feeders. What I find intriguing is the idea that we can grow our own superior diets at home and in ways that are enjoyable and inexpensive. I have mentioned numerous times how I use my koi pond filter to grow gambusia and to control insects and snails at the same time. I can harvest a hundred gambusia a month. A quick salt dip before transferring them into my tank and I am good. I expect that hashing this out and documenting feed trials is at least a multi-year project.

 

[sjkoi]

Its no secret I have concerns with feeding a strictly commercial diet. Ever wonder why humans cook their food, while every other species eats it raw? The fish food industry cooks their pellets only so that it can be bagged and sold in mass at some later time (sometimes years later). The aquaculture industry likes cooked pellets because the task of feeding live is impractical on a large scale. But do the needs of the commercial food makers and the large fish farms mean that we must also follow suit, and that feeding commercially prepared artificial diets is what’s best for our fish? Given the opportunity, feed companies would like to do for the tropical fish hobby what Kraft and McDonalds has done for the North American species Homo sapiens, which is to convince us that over processed diets are somehow superior to varied natural ones.

From: Modification of the Soluble Protein Content of Heat-Processed Soybean Flour

“An important and frequently observed effect of food processing is the reduction of protein nutritive quality.”

Most studies conducted on fish nutrition have been on commercially important species like trout and catfish. Very little is know about the nutritional needs of most tropical and saltwater species. For example, you can study the diet of Silverbacks in Africa and extrapolate broadly about the dietary needs of Howler monkeys in South America, but you are unlikely to meet the unique dietary requirements of Howlers using such a study. To broadly generalize dietary needs for all species of fish based off the needs of a few commercially important species is equally unwise. This is why knowledgeable sources recommend that you feed a variety of quality feeds. Variety goes beyond an ingredient list. It also considers the bio-availability of ingredients.

From: The Journal of Nutrition

“The preparation of a food for consumption by animal or man, by commercial processing or culinary practices, has been repeatedly shown to modify the completeness of utilization of protein in digestion or in metabolism, or in both. The effect may be favorable but is generally unfavorable,”

For example, all commercial diets involve the harvest, pre-processing, processing and storage of a variety of ingredients into a paste that is cooked and usually sealed in an airtight container. The processing of these ingredients ensures that some essential nutritional elements will be compromised. All commercial feeds require relatively high amounts of heat and pressure to form a pellet. Heat sensitive proteins under high heat conditions may completely disappear, but even low levels of heat and pressure will cause amino acids to bend and bond in unexpected ways. Heat sensitive proteins become malformed and are less readily broken down in the intestine when cooked. Because, all commercial feeds are essentially manufactured using similar methods, commercial feeds generally will see similar deficiencies with the same heat sensitive amino acids. Since all pelleted diets loose potency through oxidation as they wait to be consumed, they are all susceptible to the loss of vitality of the same nutrients. Since all pelleted diets must be immersed in water when fed they will all leach the same water-soluble vitamins and minerals. With flake foods and very small pellets this loss to leaching can be rapid. All commercial diet have these same factors in common and all processed feeds are likely to have similar nutritional blind spots. This is one reason why pelleted feeds do not produce the robust growth of natural diets. Calorie wise you can pump up a fish with pellets rich in plant starch, but such a diet does not provide the vitality of a live diet. What should become an emphasis in the hobby is a focus on the proper use of live feed and how to procure and produce our own live diets and return our tanks to a more ecologically sound state.