What if we don't like horses?
P.S.-- I don't advocate the abuse of animals, alive or dead.
Goldfish are Nutritious
- Thread starter sjkoi
- Start date
What if we don't like horses?
P.S.-- I don't advocate the abuse of animals, alive or dead.
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Research Article
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Effect of Formula Variation in the Properties of Fish Feed Pellet[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]S. Saalah, R. Shapawi, N.A. Othman and A. Bono[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]ABSTRACT
Most of fish feed pellet in market is low in terms of water stability and easily swell when it is immersed in water. Thus, the soluble vitamins and minerals will be easily leached out from the pellet. These will lead to the nutrient deficiency and environmental problems in fish tanks or ponds.
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http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=jas.2010.2537.2543&org=11
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[TD="class: linespace, colspan: 2"][/TD]
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Research Article
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Effect of Formula Variation in the Properties of Fish Feed Pellet[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]S. Saalah, R. Shapawi, N.A. Othman and A. Bono[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]ABSTRACT
Most of fish feed pellet in market is low in terms of water stability and easily swell when it is immersed in water. Thus, the soluble vitamins and minerals will be easily leached out from the pellet. These will lead to the nutrient deficiency and environmental problems in fish tanks or ponds.
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http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=jas.2010.2537.2543&org=11
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In case you didn't actually even read past the first few lines of that (cough-cough) study, the authors were referring to commercial *farm* feed, in the Malaysian market. 
Palm oil is being pushed due to it being cheap, and readily available in Malaysia, perhaps even attempting to demonstrate to the global market how GREAT palm oil can be for *farm* feed applications, to improve export numbers of this product. Hmmmmm.
Sorry, but you won't find Palm Oil stearin in the pellets that I use in my tanks.
And from this (cough-cough) study, we are all now to believe that the optimum formulation of a quality feed should consist of 40.50% corn, 14.00% soy, 7.00% stearin and 38.00% tapioca?
ha-ha-ha-ha! Good stuff!
I do concur with the following statement from that study;
Bingo!
Composition variations, the method of processing, the size of the pellet, whether it's a floating or sinking pellet, will all greatly affect how quickly, or slowly, a food will "swell", and how quickly or slowly nutrients will leach from a commercial food. Of course the total nutrients found in the raw ingredients, and in additional supplements, will also determine the vitamin content when the food is consumed by ones fish. As an example, all other factors being equal, a food that contains a min of 500 mg/kg of vitamin C, will obviously contain more vitamin C after 5 minutes in a system, compared to one that starts out with 75 mg/kg of vitamin C.
And to add to that, there are dense foods currently on the market that are designed to remain hard, and stable, for long periods in an aquarium. You won't find these types of foods in *commercial farm feed*, but you can find them in certain brands of tropical fish feed. I have personally tested some of these foods and found them to be just as firm/hard after soaking for hours, as when I initially removed them from their factory sealed container. No swelling, and little to no water absorption even after hours in a tank. A perfect food for slow eating nocturnal feeders.
Interestingly enough, the main concern that I read about the food that I use is how damn hard the pellets are, so much so that some people complain about the difficulty they have in initially training their fish to readily consume them. While I agree that they are indeed a dense, hard pellet compared to those that are full of starch, now perhaps those reading this will understand why that is. Low starch inclusion rates = less swelling, and more stability in the nutrients once that food hits the water. The hardness & density of these pellets did not happen by accident.
Vitamin leaching in *commercial applications* is a concern due the size of the systems, and the quantity of food that is broadcast across a pond at feeding time.
The vast majority of hobbyists are not feeding 100 lb's of food at any given time, such as what can take place in commercial applications. In most home aquarium applications, most food will be consumed in under 60-90 seconds. In my personal tanks, my fish consume the food immediately as it hits the water. (2-5 seconds?) Only after that food is consumed do I feed more, going back & forth between tanks until all of the fish have been fed an appropriate amount. This not only ensures maximum nutrient intake, over the long haul it saves feed costs.
Floating foods (such as used in the paper linked to) by their very design will absorb water more readily than denser, harder, sinking pellets. This is due to a floating pellet having a honeycomb design to it, which helps it to float. In commercial *farm* feeds these pellets will also typically have FAR greater starch content, which while assisting with floating, and reducing overall feed costs, also equates to much greater water absoprtion - which in turn equates to much faster leaching of water soluble nutrients. Similar to what one will see in flake food, as due to flakes large diameter, and paper thin design, they will leach water soluble nutrients VERY quickly. This is common knowledge among commercial farmers, and obviously no one is raising piscivores on flake food.
In commercial *farm* applications most fish farmers prefer to use floating food so they can monitor how much the fish are eating in a pond. Typically only when outdoor temps drop, fish metabolisms slow down, and the fish stop coming to the surface to feed, do farmers utilize sinking pellets.
Bottom line is, this is just another scare tactic link, with more bogus info that has nothing to do with how or what the vast majority of fishkeepers on this site are feeding their fish.
HTH
Palm oil is being pushed due to it being cheap, and readily available in Malaysia, perhaps even attempting to demonstrate to the global market how GREAT palm oil can be for *farm* feed applications, to improve export numbers of this product. Hmmmmm.
Sorry, but you won't find Palm Oil stearin in the pellets that I use in my tanks.
And from this (cough-cough) study, we are all now to believe that the optimum formulation of a quality feed should consist of 40.50% corn, 14.00% soy, 7.00% stearin and 38.00% tapioca?
ha-ha-ha-ha! Good stuff!
I do concur with the following statement from that study;
Bingo!
Composition variations, the method of processing, the size of the pellet, whether it's a floating or sinking pellet, will all greatly affect how quickly, or slowly, a food will "swell", and how quickly or slowly nutrients will leach from a commercial food. Of course the total nutrients found in the raw ingredients, and in additional supplements, will also determine the vitamin content when the food is consumed by ones fish. As an example, all other factors being equal, a food that contains a min of 500 mg/kg of vitamin C, will obviously contain more vitamin C after 5 minutes in a system, compared to one that starts out with 75 mg/kg of vitamin C.
And to add to that, there are dense foods currently on the market that are designed to remain hard, and stable, for long periods in an aquarium. You won't find these types of foods in *commercial farm feed*, but you can find them in certain brands of tropical fish feed. I have personally tested some of these foods and found them to be just as firm/hard after soaking for hours, as when I initially removed them from their factory sealed container. No swelling, and little to no water absorption even after hours in a tank. A perfect food for slow eating nocturnal feeders.
Interestingly enough, the main concern that I read about the food that I use is how damn hard the pellets are, so much so that some people complain about the difficulty they have in initially training their fish to readily consume them. While I agree that they are indeed a dense, hard pellet compared to those that are full of starch, now perhaps those reading this will understand why that is. Low starch inclusion rates = less swelling, and more stability in the nutrients once that food hits the water. The hardness & density of these pellets did not happen by accident.
Vitamin leaching in *commercial applications* is a concern due the size of the systems, and the quantity of food that is broadcast across a pond at feeding time.
The vast majority of hobbyists are not feeding 100 lb's of food at any given time, such as what can take place in commercial applications. In most home aquarium applications, most food will be consumed in under 60-90 seconds. In my personal tanks, my fish consume the food immediately as it hits the water. (2-5 seconds?) Only after that food is consumed do I feed more, going back & forth between tanks until all of the fish have been fed an appropriate amount. This not only ensures maximum nutrient intake, over the long haul it saves feed costs.
Floating foods (such as used in the paper linked to) by their very design will absorb water more readily than denser, harder, sinking pellets. This is due to a floating pellet having a honeycomb design to it, which helps it to float. In commercial *farm* feeds these pellets will also typically have FAR greater starch content, which while assisting with floating, and reducing overall feed costs, also equates to much greater water absoprtion - which in turn equates to much faster leaching of water soluble nutrients. Similar to what one will see in flake food, as due to flakes large diameter, and paper thin design, they will leach water soluble nutrients VERY quickly. This is common knowledge among commercial farmers, and obviously no one is raising piscivores on flake food.
In commercial *farm* applications most fish farmers prefer to use floating food so they can monitor how much the fish are eating in a pond. Typically only when outdoor temps drop, fish metabolisms slow down, and the fish stop coming to the surface to feed, do farmers utilize sinking pellets.
Bottom line is, this is just another scare tactic link, with more bogus info that has nothing to do with how or what the vast majority of fishkeepers on this site are feeding their fish.
HTH
All pellets begin loosing potency from the date of harvest to the time it is consumed. The manufacturing process and a pellets immersion in water are rapid periods of nutrient loss. The rate of leaching is related to the pellets manufacture, its size and ingredients. Pellets that have higher fat and starch levels will resist leaching the longest. Pellets with small diameters can leach nutrients almost as rapidly as flake foods. Making a fish diet is a game of tradeoffs. It is more constraining than mixing items in a blender. There have been some breakthroughs in manufacture over the years, but it hasn't changed that much. When you go to a manufacture to have a diet made its all done on a computer. If you want to add yeast to your diet, the program may kick in additional starch so that the pellet will bind. Very glossy hard pellets have the highest gluten levels. It is the glue that binds the other ingredients together. It goes on back and forth until you and the computer settle on something you both can live with. You can't make a pellet with the same high protein concentration of live fish because it just wouldn't hold together. You also can't make a pellet with the freshness of a live diet.
This will be a slow process and not for anyone with a short attention span. You have a company representative of NLS actively defending comercial diets against a simple mud dog like myself. Should be a slam dunk for the pellet argument don't you think? Good nutrition equals good health. Its a big topic that needs lots of room. We debate the science and then put the diets to a trial. If it doesn't interest you then don't post.
This comes from the NLS website itself and so you can see that even a top-tier diet is not immune to nutrient leaching. Just as they aren't immune to nutrient loss while sitting on the shelf waiting to sell at a discount or on the internet.
"Those hard pellets turn into soft mush in a very short period of time! If a pellet food causes gastrointestinal issues in a fish, it will usually be due to the use of poorly digestible ingredients, such as excessive amounts of grains and grain by-products, not from the food swelling up inside the fish's stomach. Most importantly, when you pre-soak pellet food, you are allowing nutrients and water-soluble vitamins and minerals to leach out into the water."
You are not going to find grain or grain by-products in a live diet. Minnows and goldfish , and/or most home grown feeders, are nearly 60% protien and less than 10% fat. Very highly digestable and the nutrients and proteins are fresh and vital. The NLS diet has a large amount of plant material and a protein content in the mid 30's. It is a cooked paste that has a limited shelf life and must be fed to your fish immediately or suffer additional nutrient loss. If the feed company comes back and debates any of these points they will do so by slandering me but will actually offer no counter argument. Watch.
Nice little selective cut & paste, Rich. Here's the complete comment .....
Another common mistake by some hobbyists is to pre-soak their pellets, in the misguided belief that this will aid in digestion and prevent swelling of the pellets inside the fishes gut. This is nothing more than an urban myth created by those that simply do not understand the amount of enzymes and gastric acids that are released by most fish when they consume food. Those hard pellets turn into soft mush in a very short period of time! If a pellet food causes gastrointestinal issues in a fish, it will usually be due to the use of poorly digestible ingredients, such as excessive amounts of grains and grain by-products, not from the food swelling up inside the fish's stomach. Most importantly, when you pre-soak pellet food, you are allowing nutrients and water soluble vitamins and minerals to leach out into the water.
Yes, they turn into mush in a very short period of time, once consumed by a fish, and exposed to their gastric acids & enzymes. And yes, of course pre-soaking pellets will allow some of the water soluble nutrients to leach out, doh! Some hobbyists have stated that they pre-soak their pellets for 10-15 minutes before feeding certain bloat prone species such as Tropheus moorii. Not a good idea, with any food.
The owner of New Life has been breeding & raising fish by the millions for the past 40 years, including species classified as piscivores, do you really think that he doesn't know what it takes to get optimum growth out of a young fish? His "Growth" formula is a min 50% protein, and a min 9% fat.
Show me a study involving any piscivore species where it is demonstrated that beyond a fry stage of life they require 60% protein. Even sturgeon fry feed typically tops out at 50-55% protein, and is later reduced to 40-45% protein as the fish gains size. Ditto to salmon, trout, etc.
Good luck with that.
Another common mistake by some hobbyists is to pre-soak their pellets, in the misguided belief that this will aid in digestion and prevent swelling of the pellets inside the fishes gut. This is nothing more than an urban myth created by those that simply do not understand the amount of enzymes and gastric acids that are released by most fish when they consume food. Those hard pellets turn into soft mush in a very short period of time! If a pellet food causes gastrointestinal issues in a fish, it will usually be due to the use of poorly digestible ingredients, such as excessive amounts of grains and grain by-products, not from the food swelling up inside the fish's stomach. Most importantly, when you pre-soak pellet food, you are allowing nutrients and water soluble vitamins and minerals to leach out into the water.
Yes, they turn into mush in a very short period of time, once consumed by a fish, and exposed to their gastric acids & enzymes. And yes, of course pre-soaking pellets will allow some of the water soluble nutrients to leach out, doh! Some hobbyists have stated that they pre-soak their pellets for 10-15 minutes before feeding certain bloat prone species such as Tropheus moorii. Not a good idea, with any food.
The owner of New Life has been breeding & raising fish by the millions for the past 40 years, including species classified as piscivores, do you really think that he doesn't know what it takes to get optimum growth out of a young fish? His "Growth" formula is a min 50% protein, and a min 9% fat.
Show me a study involving any piscivore species where it is demonstrated that beyond a fry stage of life they require 60% protein. Even sturgeon fry feed typically tops out at 50-55% protein, and is later reduced to 40-45% protein as the fish gains size. Ditto to salmon, trout, etc.
Good luck with that.
DO YOU HAVE A READING PROBLEM??
RD IS NOT A COMPANY REPRESENTATIVE FOR NLS!!!!!
JUST DROP THE SUBJECT. YOU ARE GETTING NO WHERE.
IT'S NOT THAT THE TOPIC DOESN'T INTEREST ME... YOU'RE NONSENSE POSTS DON'T INTEREST ME.. AT-ALL. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.. YOU OWN GOLDFISH/KOI, AND OSCARS. WHEN YOU OWN HALF OF THE TYPE OF FISH WE OWN, THEN YOU WILL ACTUALLY SEE HOW HARMFUL A LIVE DIET CAN REALLY BE.
THE PROOF IS IN THE FISH.. I'VE SEEN BETTER QUALITY/HEALTHIER FISH FED ONLY A PELLET DIET, AND THAT'S THAT.
THE GREEN TEXT, I AM SURE IT TALKING ABOUT HORRID PELLETS MADE BY TETRA AND THE SUCH.. THERE ARE SOME VERY GOOD PELLETS, AND THAT'S WHAT 99.9% OF US FEED OUR FISH.
FOR THE RECORD ROSY REDS AND GOLDFISH ARE NOT NUTRITIOUS!!!!!!!
GAH, YOU'RE REALLY STARTING TO GET ANNOYING.
An area where we, and the science, both agree. Juvenile fish need very high levels of protein. Purina has done research into diets trying to define minimum nutrient contents not so that they could provide maximal nutrition but rather the reverse. I maintain that you can get adequate nutrition with a pellet, just not excellent. That is why at some point we’ll start with feed comparison trials and see which diet provides superior results.
Here is some quick dietary info about raw foods. This is just a small sampling from common literature as it relates to human diets but it also translates into any diet.
From Fox News (2007)
Eating Raw: The Benefits of an 'Uncooked' Diet
Stokes slowly shifted away from eating highly processed meat, pasteurized dairy products and other cooked foods to a more natural and less-altered diet of raw and “living” foods.
"Since giving up my old ways of eating, I have lost 160 pounds and am one of the healthiest people I know," said Stokes, now an award-winning raw food author and lifestyle consultant.
For food to be considered raw or living, it must never be exposed to temperatures over 118 degrees because, according to raw food specialist, author and certified clinical nutritionist, Natalia Rose, its enzymes, vitamins, and minerals are either killed or greatly altered leaving the food depleted of its natural healing life force.
Copied from Sathy Wong, About.com Guide (9-15-11)
Why Eat Raw Food?
The raw food diet is based on the belief that the most healthful food for the body is uncooked. Although most food is eaten raw, heating food is acceptable as long as the temperature stays below 104 to 118 degrees Fahrenheit (the cutoff temperature varies among those in the raw food community). Cooking is thought to denature the enzymes naturally present in food. According to raw foodists, enyzymes are the life force of a food, helping us to digest food and absorb nutrients. If we overconsume cooked food, our bodies are forced to work harder by producing more enzymes. Over time, a lack of enzymes from food is thought to lead to digestive problems, nutrient deficiency, accelerated aging
Cooking food can diminish its nutritional value. For example, the cancer-fighting compounds in broccoli, sulforaphanes, are greatly reduced when broccoli is cooked. Certain vitamins, such as vitamin C and folate, are destroyed by heat. Other foods, however, become more healthful after cooking, because the fibrous portion is broken down. For example, cooked tomatoes contain three to four times more lycopene than raw tomatoes.
Cooking also promotes the formation of potentially harmful compounds in food during high heat cooking, such as advanced glycation end products and heterocyclic amines.
Copied from “Kristen’s Live”:
Enzymes are the power of life. They are living forces that conduct and direct every activity in your body. Enzymes "digest" or break down raw foods. More and more research suggests eating high-enzyme food helps digestion. Eating an enzyme-rich diet is thought to increase vitality and slow the aging process. According to Dr. Gabriel Cousens, M.D., "Enzymes can even help repair our DNA and RNA." One of the keys for easy weight loss is through the action of enzymes. For example, lipase, a fat splitting enzyme, is found in Raw foods. Lipase helps your body in digestion and fat burning for energy. Protease is another enzyme for keeping a healthy body. Proteases split up proteins into their component amino acid building blocks and help eliminate toxins.
Enzymes are heat sensitive and destroyed at temperatures above 118 degrees. Again, the bottom line here is that when you cook your food, you're destroying the nutrients and enzymes. It's like eating empty foods that just fill you up temporarily. And, you're causing your body to do more work than necessary to digest the cooked food you just ate. It's not only a waste, but it also accelerates aging. One of the reasons your energy skyrockets when you eat Raw foods is that your body doesn't spend as much time digesting the food. Digestion is the #1 energy drainer for people, so if you can help that by decreasing the time your body needs to digest food, you'll automatically experience more pure, real energy.
These are just some of the reasons why a live vital diet will outperform a commercial diet in a feed trial.
Here is some quick dietary info about raw foods. This is just a small sampling from common literature as it relates to human diets but it also translates into any diet.
From Fox News (2007)
Eating Raw: The Benefits of an 'Uncooked' Diet
Stokes slowly shifted away from eating highly processed meat, pasteurized dairy products and other cooked foods to a more natural and less-altered diet of raw and “living” foods.
"Since giving up my old ways of eating, I have lost 160 pounds and am one of the healthiest people I know," said Stokes, now an award-winning raw food author and lifestyle consultant.
For food to be considered raw or living, it must never be exposed to temperatures over 118 degrees because, according to raw food specialist, author and certified clinical nutritionist, Natalia Rose, its enzymes, vitamins, and minerals are either killed or greatly altered leaving the food depleted of its natural healing life force.
Copied from Sathy Wong, About.com Guide (9-15-11)
Why Eat Raw Food?
The raw food diet is based on the belief that the most healthful food for the body is uncooked. Although most food is eaten raw, heating food is acceptable as long as the temperature stays below 104 to 118 degrees Fahrenheit (the cutoff temperature varies among those in the raw food community). Cooking is thought to denature the enzymes naturally present in food. According to raw foodists, enyzymes are the life force of a food, helping us to digest food and absorb nutrients. If we overconsume cooked food, our bodies are forced to work harder by producing more enzymes. Over time, a lack of enzymes from food is thought to lead to digestive problems, nutrient deficiency, accelerated aging
Cooking food can diminish its nutritional value. For example, the cancer-fighting compounds in broccoli, sulforaphanes, are greatly reduced when broccoli is cooked. Certain vitamins, such as vitamin C and folate, are destroyed by heat. Other foods, however, become more healthful after cooking, because the fibrous portion is broken down. For example, cooked tomatoes contain three to four times more lycopene than raw tomatoes.
Cooking also promotes the formation of potentially harmful compounds in food during high heat cooking, such as advanced glycation end products and heterocyclic amines.
Copied from “Kristen’s Live”:
Enzymes are the power of life. They are living forces that conduct and direct every activity in your body. Enzymes "digest" or break down raw foods. More and more research suggests eating high-enzyme food helps digestion. Eating an enzyme-rich diet is thought to increase vitality and slow the aging process. According to Dr. Gabriel Cousens, M.D., "Enzymes can even help repair our DNA and RNA." One of the keys for easy weight loss is through the action of enzymes. For example, lipase, a fat splitting enzyme, is found in Raw foods. Lipase helps your body in digestion and fat burning for energy. Protease is another enzyme for keeping a healthy body. Proteases split up proteins into their component amino acid building blocks and help eliminate toxins.
Enzymes are heat sensitive and destroyed at temperatures above 118 degrees. Again, the bottom line here is that when you cook your food, you're destroying the nutrients and enzymes. It's like eating empty foods that just fill you up temporarily. And, you're causing your body to do more work than necessary to digest the cooked food you just ate. It's not only a waste, but it also accelerates aging. One of the reasons your energy skyrockets when you eat Raw foods is that your body doesn't spend as much time digesting the food. Digestion is the #1 energy drainer for people, so if you can help that by decreasing the time your body needs to digest food, you'll automatically experience more pure, real energy.
These are just some of the reasons why a live vital diet will outperform a commercial diet in a feed trial.
