Green terror help

Aquabetch

Feeder Fish
Original poster
Oct 9, 2019
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I have one green terror in a 40 gallon. It is about 3 inches. My question is could or should I add more GT. Can anyone tell if this is a male or female? It looks more female to me. What is with this gold saum green terror debate ?

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MrsE88

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Mar 9, 2017
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I wouldn’t add another one.
And I agree, at least right now it appears to look female. It could be deceiving because it is thin and the color is “washed out” but it looks like it has a bluer face and the lack of color in the fins that females typically have.

Yours is a silver saum.
Silver and gold saums are Andinoacara Rivulatus.
As you can see in the last picture you posted Rivulatus and stalsbergi have different scale patterns.
 

neutrino

Aimara
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Jan 22, 2013
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I wouldn’t add another one.
And I agree, at least right now it appears to look female. It could be deceiving because it is thin and the color is “washed out” but it looks like it has a bluer face and the lack of color in the fins that females typically have.

Yours is a silver saum.
Silver and gold saums are Andinoacara Rivulatus.
As you can see in the last picture you posted Rivulatus and stalsbergi have different scale patterns.
+1

Re: Green terror debate, I suppose you're referring to whether gold edged rivulatus is a 'true' green terror. Mostly it's because some hobbyists claim A. stalsbergi is the "true" green terror and rivulatus is a "false" green terror. It's an artificial debate. In many places, including SA, none of them are called green terrors, so it's a hobby name, used only in some countries, and has no official relevance and has nothing to do with their taxonomic names. In fact, the only relevant debate used to be which was the true rivulatus. Early books and some biologists and others thought what is now stalsbergi was the original rivulatus-- so in some minds the original green terror-- they were wrong, the current rivulatus was confirmed as rivulatus and stalsbergi was given its current name.

That's the background, here's the short answer--
Which fish does the global taxonomic database registry FishBase call a green terror? Green terror appears directly under the scientific name Andinoacara rivulatus and is not to be found under Andinoacara stalsbergi.
Rivulatus page
Stalsbergi page
 
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neutrino

Aimara
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Jan 22, 2013
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But in fact more than one fish has been called green terror, it partly depends which country and their history with the fish, or who you've been listening to, so "green terror" can be any of a few Andinoacra. As an informal name in the first place, what matters is their scientific name. Here's the longer answer, from one of my posts in another thread:
http://www.tfhdigital.com/tfh/201005/?pg=35#pg35

To summarize-- First GT imports to the US were from Ecuador in the 1970s, in other words rivulatus. They were very expensive, especially the orange edged variation. Keepers called them terrors because these adult wild male rivulatus were so aggressive. Meanwhile, the original and meaningful debate was not over the nickname 'green terror' but over the science: which fish is rivulatus. Some had the Peru fish, what's now stalsbergi, as the true rivulatus. At one point, a German article called what is now stalsbergi 'the green terror that isn't'. It was neither the white edged or gold edged Ecuador fish, it was a third fish.

I myself had cichlid books back in the day with photos of stalsbergi stating they were the true rivulatus. This turned out wrong, the Eduador fish is rivulatus, and the Peru fish is now stalsbergi. Alf Stalsberg insisted for years stalsbergi was the true rivulatus but had to acquiesce when biologists officially determined the Ecuador fish is rivulatus, not the Peru fish (stalsbergi). Alf is knowledgeable, he has his opinions, but he's not a biologist. Wayne Leibel who wrote the article above is a biologist, as is Sven Kullander and his colleagues who separated stalsbergi from rivulatus. That debate, which is the true rivulatus, is over. Alf was mistaken, as were others who insisted back in the day that the Peru fish was rivulatus.

Some of the stalsbergi as 'true' green terror theory comes from Alf, also hobbyists who don't know the history and repeat what they've heard from other hobbyists who don't know the history, besides years of confusion over which was the true rivulatus. I've seen the claim that the first fish imported to Germany was stalsbergi and therefore it's the original GT, or at least it's the German GT... but there it is, the German article calling what we now know to be stalsbergi 'the green terror that isn't'.

Alf still has a page up that insists rivulatus is not really a green terror. Whatever. True GT, false GT, it's window dressing, a hobbyist debate over a manufactured mystique, much ado about nothing. In some countries they don't call them green terrors in the first place. What you believe depends on who you listen to or what you want to believe.
 
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mabirchell

Jack Dempsey
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Oct 22, 2012
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+1

Re: Green terror debate, I suppose you're referring to whether gold edged rivulatus is a 'true' green terror. Mostly it's because some hobbyists claim A. stalsbergi is the "true" green terror and rivulatus is a "false" green terror. It's an artificial debate. In many places, including SA, none of them are called green terrors, so it's a hobby name, used only in some countries, and has no official relevance and has nothing to do with their taxonomic names. In fact, the only relevant debate used to be which was the true rivulatus. Early books and some biologists and others thought what is now stalsbergi was the original rivulatus-- so in some minds the original green terror-- they were wrong, the current rivulatus was confirmed as rivulatus and stalsbergi was given its current name.

That's the background, here's the short answer--
Which fish does the global taxonomic database registry FishBase call a green terror? Green terror appears directly under the scientific name Andinoacara rivulatus and is not to be found under Andinoacara stalsbergi.
Rivulatus page
Stalsbergi page
So glad you understand this! You must be the only person haha. I hate even posting pictures of mine because it always starts a war when someone says,” hey nice green terror” then all the experts come out to destroy their life. I feel the GT debate is hotter than hybrids these days 😆.

And to the OP , nice rivulatus! The silver ones are harder to find and very attractive once they mature. The extra color on the face makes me think female but it’s just a guess. Fatten it up and give it a month and I’m sure it’s true colors will come in.
 
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neutrino

Aimara
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Jan 22, 2013
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So glad you understand this! You must be the only person haha. I hate even posting pictures of mine because it always starts a war when someone says,” hey nice green terror” then all the experts come out to destroy their life. I feel the GT debate is hotter than hybrids these days 😆.
One of my biggest pet peeves in the cichlid world, can you tell? :ROFL:
 
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