Gulper catfish trio, ~7"
- Thread starter thebiggerthebetter
- Start date
They still showed signs of external parasites, not lice, but something else.
3 treatments of BSDT went ok
4th one killed 4 out of 5.
The survivor (the biggest, fastest-grown of the 13)
3 treatments of BSDT went ok
4th one killed 4 out of 5.
The survivor (the biggest, fastest-grown of the 13)
Stubbornly trying again. Five new 3"-4" gulpers from Wes & Co. One feeds same night.
The 5x newcomers have been good.
1 started feeding same night.
1 the next day.
2 in 4-5 days.
1 in a week+.
Good footage of them plus the the bigger survivor eating here:
1 started feeding same night.
1 the next day.
2 in 4-5 days.
1 in a week+.
Good footage of them plus the the bigger survivor eating here:
From YT. An exchange with a vet it would seem under the quoted video: Emaciation+parasite+formalin=loss of 3 more gulpers. 6 for 13. Only 3 thrive. None hide still.
majorbruster5916 Gulper catfishes are scaleless. You don't treat scaleless fish with malachite green and formalin. The treatment kills them. I think someone is not very well informed. You need to do a proper examination and work up to a diagnosis.
Fish-Story Thank you. It sounds like you are speaking from theory? In our practice, we have treated 200 different species of catfish, including gulpers, ~50 times over the past 20 years with formalin and MG and found catfish in general tolerate it the same as any other scaly or skinny tankmate. Gulpers are just more sensitive to it, so the dose needs to be reduced to 1/4-1/3.
@majorbruster5916 Not theory, many years of practice as a fish health consultant and pathologist, following 20 years of working in teaching and research at university. I have attended quite a few cases where an Mg/F treatment has ended in mortalities. Scaleless species and cartilaginous fishes seem to be more sensitive to the combination than others. Indeed, here in the UK ( I don't know where you are), there are explicit warnings on the treatment containers to avoid treating these species with either of the ingredients. The Mg/F treatment is safe when used at the recommended dose, and I have treated many hundreds of fishes on fish farms and in ornamental ponds without incident. Diluting the dosage below the MIC can cause issues such as extended tissue damage and debilitation, however, the success or failure of such an action depends on many other factors such as the condition of the fishes, their immune response (IgG, CMR, etc.) and their stress levels. As I said, a proper examination and diagnosis will go a long way to a successful outcome. There are alternative therapies available.
If, as you say, you have experience of treating catfish with Mg/F with good success, then I (and many others in the field) would very much like to see a formal publication describing your rationale and methodology. If your treatment protocol is robust, then this would be welcomed among the aquarist community where the use of Mg/F has long been a source of significant frustration and debate.
Fish-Story Thank you, this is exceedingly rare & so great to hear an earnest professional input. We appreciate this a lot. We are in the USA. Needless to say you know a million times more on the subject than me, who has been merely turning hobby into a profession. So all I can share is my crude experience.
Without a doubt both F & MG are harsh on fish & the recommended dosages required to kill off parasites seem to not be far below the dosages sickening or killing fish. Hence cases of negative results appear to abound indeed, I infer.
Yes, there are the same warnings on most such treatments in the USA too. I personally never understood them as in my fish keeping, I haven’t noted a difference between a scaled & scaleless fish response. As a rule, either both kinds got cured, or both got sickened or killed.
“Diluting the dosage below the MIC can cause issues such as extended tissue damage & debilitation, “
***I don’t understand this. Wouldn’t then the MIC & higher concentrations cause more pronounced damage to the fish? Most usually the higher the concentration, the stronger the effect, no?
“however, the success or failure of such an action depends on many other factors such as the condition of the fishes, their immune response (IgG, CMR, etc.) & their stress levels. “
***Understood & agreed.
“As I said, a proper examination & diagnosis will go a long way to a successful outcome. There are alternative therapies available. “
***I’ve never used vet services, except for free consultations so far. Vet services are very expensive (to me & most hobbyists), most usually exceeding the value of fish by 10x or more. So I’ve always had to play the role of a crude & primitive health care provider for my fish.
“If, as you say, you have experience of treating catfish with Mg/F with good success, then I (and many others in the field) would very much like to see a formal publication describing your rationale & methodology. If your treatment protocol is robust, then this would be welcomed among the aquarist community where the use of Mg/F has long been a source of significant frustration & debate.”
***You probably think I am some kind of a peer. I am not. I am in 10 leagues below yours in the vet field. I hold a doctorate degree in physical organic chemistry but I’ve no education even in basic college-level biology & could never publish anything outside of my field of expertise in peer-reviewed literature. I could perhaps make a video specifically on the topic, describing in detail our experience with the F+MG treatments & our many successes & occasional failures over the last 20 years.
What I could tell you is what you well know that F plus a dye, Methylene Blue or Malachite Green, is a widely used ich (and epistylis & others) med in the USA, almost every hobbyist used it, & it works great & as expected.
Moreover, we have a Company called “Microbe Lift” in the US that produces what they call a “Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment” (BSDT) based, in their words, on an especially mild F+MG formula. MG is in a tiny proportion to F, like 0.4% if memory serves, & a “special” form of F is used. Formaldehyde is not a straightforward chemical that exists in one form. It’s very reactive, including with itself, & its water solution needs to have stabilizers (alcohols like ethanol, methanol are known, again, going by memory) preventing the formation & precipitation of the acutely poisonous & poorly soluble olygomers & polymers of formaldehyde. So there may or may not be some truth to the BSDT marketing claims. IDK. Places like the famous Ohio Fish Rescue & us, the Fish Story Aquarium & Rescue, have been using this stuff by 50+ gallons per year for a decade or longer. Often times we have to treat our entire systems containing a thousand of extremely diverse fish in 50,000-100,000 gallons of water. The BSDT is also a good treatment for any external pathogens before QT or in lieu of QT when needed (followed by 1 or 2 other treatments, such as 1%-3% salt bath, potassium permanganate, peroxide+peracetic acid Finn Minn, etc.)
On our end, we document in an open and accessible form ALL treatments both in our videos & in our blog (we have a blog for each of 200-300 fish species we ever kept that we have maintained for 10+ years). It’s just that the cases of F+MG treatment are spread over a vast expanse of videos and posts.
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