Has anyone used GE SILICONE II with success?

[ybahman]

But you are right bettas are really sensitive. So maybe the effect is slight, so if you have a stronger fish it will be able to tolerate it. I washed out the tank with alcohol and I put a gold fish in, I'll let you know how he does.

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

I have 3 tanks and 2 sumps resealed with ge2 that does have the bio seal in it and the tanks have been upand running for 2-3yrs with no problems.

The info you find on the bioseal stuff being dangerous to fish is totally false.

If the tube says 100% silicone then it can not have anything else in it.

And by purely chemical make up ALL 100% silicone is mold and mildew resistant. This is why GE had to trade mark there catchy fraze BIO-Seal.

 

[gomezladdams]

If the tube says 100% silicone then it can not have anything else in it.

Excellent point!But incorrect.I dont know the standards they use to judge 100% but silicone rubber is clear.if it has color there is another substance in there.
Theres been plenty of threads about tanks of death after using silicone with bioseal.Not worth the risk, its easy enough to find a tube that doesnt say it.

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

Excellent point!But incorrect.I dont know the standards they use to judge 100% but silicone rubber is clear.if it has color there is another substance in there.
Theres been plenty of threads about tanks of death after using silicone with bioseal.Not worth the risk, its easy enough to find a tube that doesnt say it.

I hear about this everyday it seems. Bio seal substances in silicone harming fish.

But I myself searched for days on end looking for any credable information on that subject and i could not find any at all.

What i did find was people online saying that there fish had died after a reseal with bioseal silicone and in the same thread there were lots more people saying that they had used it with no ill effects. And in every instance the person saying that the bio-seal harmed there fish could not provide any proof. 99% of the time they would say that after the reseal the put all there fish back in the tank and a few days later they died. Which we all know could have very well been ammonia related. Because the bio-filter was destroyed during the cleaning and reseal of the tank.

I even went as far as making a poll on MFK to see if anyone had any first hand experience with these bio-seals harming fish. And no one did. But plenty of people had word of mouth info or should I say mis-info to spread around.

Thats why I choose to use it.

Its amazing to me how these rumors turn to truth on the net and then are spread around as if they are gospel.

I do agree on the 100% comment. As we all know that 100% silicone is a liquid in make up. And its not a naturally occuring substance.

But I myself have used geII silicone on many occasions and have never seen a problem at all. All tanks cycled fine and have been housing some of the most fragile fish known to the trade for years.

 

[Rivermud]

honestly i do not understand why you are so adamant in your argument over this. replying to you in the past has only sparked flame wars so i don't know why i bother now. please stop advocating your personal experience as gospel and we'll stop arguing against it. the other thread has enough information for people to make their own choice.. let them

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

honestly i do not understand why you are so adamant in your argument over this. replying to you in the past has only sparked flame wars so i don't know why i bother now. please stop advocating your personal experience as gospel and we'll stop arguing against it. the other thread has enough information for people to make their own choice.. let them

So just stand around and let mis-information be spread?

I have a personal first hand experience with what the OP was asking about. So there for IMO that would be info worth spreading.

And besides you just like to argue about anything, whether you have any personal experiences on the subject or just what you have read.

 

[Rivermud]

Alright, flame war on. I'm tired of you belittling anything that doesn't back your claim. So let's get it on. I'll cite my sources and references if you want to continue your petty battle. I could honestly care less that you claim to have used GEII (you still have not once claimed it was labelled BIO Seal). I've pointed out many many many times now that GEII is perfectly safe. Advocating a product that has a label specifically noting biological toxins as part of it's make-up is ludicrous. You asked me once for proof (see linked thread from earlier post) to give you straight up documentation on GEII, I provided it with sources. You replied stating that I am amazing and I know how to cut and paste but poo-poo'd everything that I linked stating that it was meaningless. You then go on to flame me (Pharoah removed most of that to your dismay) even more because I perpetuate a myth. This is your opinion, that's it. You have no proof other than your supposed experience (which I question highly), apparently you question the validity of others statements that claim to have deadly consequences using BIo whatever on their tanks. Do you see the irony yet? Just because you think that it is a myth because you've apparently had success does not make it so. Others have had experiences that greatly differ from yours, are their experiences no longer valid because you in all your greatness have a different one? My EXTREME point here has always been: You cannot prove nor disprove the toxicity of labeled silicone, therefore it is quite reasonable to hedge your bet in the interest of safety. Since both GE I and II can have the label BIO Seal it leads the average person to assume (and rightly so) that there is an addative in said products that works as an anti-biologic. Anti-biologics are designed to prevent biological life forms from thriving/surviving, fish and other biologics natural in an aquarium could then be considered at risk if this is present. There is no other logical or sound argument you can give without providing a material component breakdown from the manufacturer of each said product showing that the anti-biological ingredient is a non leeching non toxic compound. The fact is, you cannot and neither can I. In conclusion, you absolutely cannot advocate your experience as gospel. Claiming that since you've not had issues with a product even though others have is a strong enough argument to recommend said product flies in the face of intelligence. You ask for proof, you were handed the only proof available, people experiences that differ from yours. Since the two cannot coexist, your opinion/experience vs others opinion/experience we must then assume that there is a possible toxin and thus must advocate products not labeled as containing such toxin. To do otherwise invites disaster. So, flame on.

 

[ybahman]

Here's an update. I said yesterday my betta died with silicone II. But I let the tank soak another night, then washed it out with alcohol then put a gold fish in it. it's been over 12 hours and the little guy still lives.

I dont know exactly why my betta died. It could have just been the stress of changing bowls, or he was afraid. Or maybe the silicone II secrets some thing in the first few days and that plus the pure water with no algea killed him.

Either way, this is first hand experience but it does not prove anything yet. It's just an update.

 

[Rivermud]

As a last add to this unending debate I may have finally found the answer so many people were looking for. Maybe this will finally end the (insert expletive here) debate.

Polysiloxanes with 3-(alkyldimethylammonio)propyl pendant groups were synthesized by quaternization of n-octyldimethylamine or n-dodecyldimethylamine with linear polysiloxanes containing 3-chloropropyl groups and/or 3-bromopropyl groups attached to silicon atoms. The precursor polysiloxanes, poly[(3-chloropropyl)methylsiloxane] homopolymer and various copolymers containing (3-halogenopropyl)methylsiloxane and dimethylsiloxane units, were obtained by equilibrium cationic polymerization of linear and cyclic siloxanes with (3-halogenopropyl)methylsiloxane units. The polysiloxanes bearing quaternary ammonium salts (QAS) showed bactericidal activity against bacteria such as Escherichia coli and Aeromonas hydrophila when incorporated in a polysiloxane network. The activity was retained after 66 days of immersion in water. The QAS-containing polysiloxanes are also active in aqueous solution. © 2000 John Wiley & Sons, Inc. J Appl Polym Sci 75: 1005-1012, 2000

Quaternary ammonium cations, also known as quats, are positively charged polyatomic ions of the structure NR4+ with R being alkyl groups. Unlike the ammonium ion (NH4+) and the primary, secondary, or tertiary ammonium cations, the quaternary ammonium cations are permanently charged, independent of the pH of their solution. Quaternary ammonium cations are synthesized by complete alkylation of ammonia or other amines. For possible synthesis route, see amines.
Quaternary ammonium salts or quaternary ammonium compounds (called quaternary amines in oilfield parlance) are salts of quaternary ammonium cations with an anion. They are used as disinfectants, surfactants, fabric softeners, and as antistatic agents (e.g. in shampoo). In liquid fabric softeners, the chloride salts are often used. In dryer anticling strips, the sulfate salts are often used. This is also a common ingredient in many spermicidal jellies.
In organic chemistry, quaternary ammonium salts are used as phase transfer catalysts for reactions involving immiscible solvent systems, such as the synthesis of dichlorocarbene with chloroform and sodium hydroxide.
The synthesis of this cation from ammonia is referred to as quaternization.
Through exhaustive methylation, or the Hofmann Elimination process, a quaternary ammonium iodide salt is formed. The alpha-carbon (relative to the nitrogen) is deprotonated once by a hydroxide anion from H2O and the electrons form an alkene. Subsequently, the electrons from the carbon-nitrogen bond are pushed onto the nitrogen. This sets up a tertiary amine as the leaving group.[1]
Large quaternary ammonium salts are typically obtained by alkylating tertiary amines. This process begins with a tertiary amine, to which is added a cationic alkyl group from an alkyl chloride. Typically one of the alkyl groups on the amine is larger than the rest.[2] The equation for this is:
RN(CH3)2 + ClR → N(CH3)2R2+ + Cl−
where R is the large alkyl group.
Certain long alkyl chain quaternary ammonium compounds are used as antimicrobials and disinfectants. Examples are benzalkonium chloride, benzethonium chloride, methylbenzethonium chloride, cetalkonium chloride, cetylpyridinium chloride, cetrimonium, cetrimide, dofanium chloride, tetraethylammonium bromide, didecyldimethylammonium chloride and domiphen bromide. Also good against fungi, amoeba, and enveloped viruses,[3] quats act by disrupting the cell membrane and proteins. Quats kill just about everything except endospores, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, lipid-containing viruses, and Pseudomonas spp. (some Pseudomonas spp. can even grow in solutions of quats, subsisting on them).
In contrast to phenolics, quats are not very effective in the presence of organic compounds. Yet quats are very effective in combination with phenols. Quats are deactivated by soaps, other anionic detergents, and cotton fibers.[4] Also, they are not recommended to be used in hard water. Effective levels are at 200 ppm.[5] They are effective at temperatures up to 212ºF.[6]
Along with sodium hypochlorite, quats are the primary chemicals used in foodservice industry as sanitizing agents.
If inhaled or in contact with the skin, quats may cause skin and respiratory irritation.[7] They are proposed to be the responsible group for causing anaphylactic reactions to occur to neuromuscular blocking drugs during general anaesthesia in surgery.[8]

^ www.organic-chemistry.org
^ Kosswig, K (2002): “Surfactants” Ullmann’s Encyclopedia of Industrial Chemistry
^ Specific Antimicrobials, outline of lecture by Stephen T. Abedon, Ohio State U., URL accessed Dec 2008.
^ Specific Antimicrobials, outline of lecture by Stephen T. Abedon, Ohio State U., URL accessed Dec 2008.
^ The Use of Disinfectants In the Swine Industry, Mark G. Ladd, North Carolina State Univ., URL accessed Dec 2008.
^ Matching the Right Disinfectant to the Job, Michelle Gardner, URL accessed Dec 2008.
^ http://www.ehjournal.net/content/pdf/1476-069x-8-11.pdf
^ Harper, N. J. et al (2009): "Suspected anaphylactic reactions associated with anaesthesia", Anaesthesia, 64(2):199-211

So yes, silicone can have it's make-up modified to include quaternary ammonium salts. These have a direct anti-biological effect. Hard water may even make the effect stronger. There is the end of your so-called myth. There are toxins, they may or may not affect your fish, your mileage may vary.

/debate

 

[Pharaoh]

Here's an update. I said yesterday my betta died with silicone II. But I let the tank soak another night, then washed it out with alcohol then put a gold fish in it. it's been over 12 hours and the little guy still lives.

I dont know exactly why my betta died. It could have just been the stress of changing bowls, or he was afraid. Or maybe the silicone II secrets some thing in the first few days and that plus the pure water with no algea killed him.

Either way, this is first hand experience but it does not prove anything yet. It's just an update.

Great to hear the goldfish is doing well. Goldfish are a bit hardier than most, so keep a watchful eye on him to make sure nothing is wrong.