Help ID (V. Guttulatis)
- Thread starter titansfever83
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As per experts, is this Juan an ichthyologist or an engineer?
Take a look at one of my WC Paratheraps guttulatus under "Whay am i" by hotfishgirls (as well as her specimen). The rediculously washed out pic posted at cichldae.com isnt any real basis for comparison. Nor is the picture in this thread. The fish needs to be looked at under good artificial lighting or preferably abundant sunshine. The hartwegi generally has a very obvious yellow background body color under aquarium lighting; the gutt an ashen grey and definitive blue reticulation on the operculum and much more blueish spangling above the lateral line. The hart also often has a definitive red freckling (hence the common name Red Freckled Cichlid) about the head and more "pinpointed" freckling below the eye.
It also seems odd that some continue to refer to the Paratheraps complex as Vieja and vice versa when the science doesnt bear that out. For instance:
Phylogeny and biogeography of 91 species of heroine cichlids (Teleostei: Cichlidae) based on sequences of the cytochrome b gene
by Gustavo A. Concheiro Pérez, Oldlich Iíban, Guillermo Ortí, Eldredge Bermingham, Ignacio Doadrio, Rafael Zardoya
Take a look at one of my WC Paratheraps guttulatus under "Whay am i" by hotfishgirls (as well as her specimen). The rediculously washed out pic posted at cichldae.com isnt any real basis for comparison. Nor is the picture in this thread. The fish needs to be looked at under good artificial lighting or preferably abundant sunshine. The hartwegi generally has a very obvious yellow background body color under aquarium lighting; the gutt an ashen grey and definitive blue reticulation on the operculum and much more blueish spangling above the lateral line. The hart also often has a definitive red freckling (hence the common name Red Freckled Cichlid) about the head and more "pinpointed" freckling below the eye.
It also seems odd that some continue to refer to the Paratheraps complex as Vieja and vice versa when the science doesnt bear that out. For instance:
Phylogeny and biogeography of 91 species of heroine cichlids (Teleostei: Cichlidae) based on sequences of the cytochrome b gene
by Gustavo A. Concheiro Pérez, Oldlich Iíban, Guillermo Ortí, Eldredge Bermingham, Ignacio Doadrio, Rafael Zardoya
Juan is definitely an expert on Central American cichlids. To doubt him seems really strange to me. This is assuming that you mean Juan Miguel Artigas Azas? Juan is not a professional icthyologist, but that does not discredit him. many species have been named by people who did not own any degree in natural sciences. http://cichlidae.com/author.php?id=1
When it comes to classification, there is no one person who is the ultimate authority, this is why names change. Even the most lauded "experts" can be wrong (*cough*Axelrod*cough*), I do not think that anyone is representing the images on cichlidae.com as a means of classification. Obviously, a key needs to be used and in the case of Vieja/Paratheraps the classification changes are fairly recent so that is why so many still know the fish as Vieja. Central American fish have not been studied thoroughly and I suspect that the classification changes will continue, especially with the whole exCichlasoma mess. Phylogeny studies are ongoing and cichlids are receiving more attention than ever.
When it comes to classification, there is no one person who is the ultimate authority, this is why names change. Even the most lauded "experts" can be wrong (*cough*Axelrod*cough*), I do not think that anyone is representing the images on cichlidae.com as a means of classification. Obviously, a key needs to be used and in the case of Vieja/Paratheraps the classification changes are fairly recent so that is why so many still know the fish as Vieja. Central American fish have not been studied thoroughly and I suspect that the classification changes will continue, especially with the whole exCichlasoma mess. Phylogeny studies are ongoing and cichlids are receiving more attention than ever.
I would like Guttalatus.. But NO_ONE has them.. And those that say they, do from the sounds of it... Will not post valid good pics of the fish...
that maybe because the Want to keep them...
Or they really don't have them.
I would love to see a recent picture of a Suspected Gutt.
that maybe because the Want to keep them...
Or they really don't have them.I would love to see a recent picture of a Suspected Gutt.
zerelli;1637549; said:
You seem to want to jump to some conclusions, then make some "interesting" remaks. There was posed a simple question, and you read it as an attempt to "discredit." Then you say, "To doubt him," as if everything that he expresses is liturgical truth? You mention another of your gurus, supposing they are in the same category. Maybe so, maybe not. One is in jail, the other isn't. I'll let you be the judge.
I can't help but wonder if you have any idea what you are talking about.
Is someone "representing the images," from a website, should be a "means of classification" as you say? I was unaware of that. But then again, I don't read every post.
"Central American fish have not been studied thoroughly." you assert. Relative to what? What are you basing that on? In what respect? What studies have you made? Are you an expert, or simply "qualified" to assure us who is "definitely an expert?" What are your qualifications? *hiccup* Perhaps you are an expert? Enlighten us: tell us more of your knowledge of the "ongoing phylogeny studies," and why, specificly, you "suspect that the classification changes will continue," since perhaps some of us might be interested in that.
I have no idea whether your Juan holds himself out as an "expert" or not. You are welcome to defer to his "expertise" as often as you please. But that isn't really the subject at hand. P. guttulastus is. What can you tell us of this animal, besides "defending" your expert and "explaining" the fluid state of taxonomy? Anything?
Tongue33;1637561; said:I would like Guttalatus.. But NO_ONE has them.. And those that say they, do from the sounds of it... Will not post valid good pics of the fish...
that maybe because the Want to keep them...
I would love to see a recent picture of a Suspected Gutt.
Maybe you haven't been paying close enough attention. I have recently posted 2 pictures of P. guttulatus, one Rio Camecha, and another Rio Mosanito, Mexico. I believe one may have been removed because I watermaked it, I presume. So "that maybe" you are mistaken because I have 5 adults and DON'T Want to keep them because I DO keep them. You shall have your pics - more of them - by next week but probably not your fish. Mine are not for sale. Not now, not ever. Well, maybe after many years and the bulls aging and the females no longer produce. In the meantime, keep your eye out for the fry.
Best Fishes
Mojarraman;1671539; said:
Thats pimpin!! Only problem is you are not of those I was speaking of
Nice try sly guy!! Oh.. I am jealous Seriously And I did miss you previous pics Only because like you i do not read every post.. Infact the post you posted yesterday somehow I missed that too.. until i was pm'd about it 