Help needed! Persistent ammonia spike

Rocksor

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I’ve been doing daily 50% water changes and testing everyday with a liquid api test kit. Is there a different test kit that I should be using?
You can get the Seachem Ammonia Alert which will tell you if you have toxic ammonia. It sticks on the inside of the tank. If you don't want to buy that, you can calculate how much Total Ammonia is toxic ammonia with this online calculator https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php. Enter in the salinity as 0. If toxic ammonia is 0.05, then it is of concern. Below 0.02 toxic ammonia, fish are generally safe (I'm referencing Seachem Ammonia Alert in regards to the calculator results for NH3-)

Ammonia pads (and ammonia media) bind toxic ammonia (NH3-). It won't bind non-toxic ammonium.
 

Heymikki

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You can get the Seachem Ammonia Alert which will tell you if you have toxic ammonia. It sticks on the inside of the tank. If you don't want to buy that, you can calculate how much Total Ammonia is toxic ammonia with this online calculator https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php. Enter in the salinity as 0. If toxic ammonia is 0.05, then it is of concern. Below 0.02 toxic ammonia, fish are generally safe (I'm referencing Seachem Ammonia Alert in regards to the calculator results for NH3-)

Ammonia pads (and ammonia media) bind toxic ammonia (NH3-). It won't bind non-toxic ammonium.
Thank you I’ve ordered the ammonia alert pad you mentioned, it should be here in 2 days. I’m puzzled because previously my tanks have registered 0 ammonia on a liquid test kit.
 
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aussieman57

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Not knowing what the decor is in the tank is there any chance of something dead or rotting food trapped somewhere?
 

TwoTankAmin

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BTW to me persistent ammonia means it is there for weeks not days/ Days is pary of the cycling process, a real problem is something else.

That ammonia alert works slowly. There is a better way that costs nothing and it tells you better what it going on.

As noted most hobby kits measure Total Ammonia (TA), this is the sum of NH3 (ammonia) and NH4 (ammonium).

Next, ammonia in water mostly turns to ammonium. But what we need to know is neither the TA or the NH4, we need to know how much of the really nasty stuff is in that TA. So, use something like the API ammonia test or similar and it will give you total ammonia. You will need to know 3 other numbers about your water:

1. pH
2. Temperature
3. Salinity (if you have any salt is in the water).

I wrote the info below for another site in a series of articles on cycling. The 2nd and 3rd dealt with rescuing a Fish-in Cycle Gone Wild. What is below is from the 3rd article for people who could or would not return their fish or add a viable bottled bacteria.

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php


1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.

The number you want to know is the one for NH3.

[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]

Why do you want this number? Because, to get a tank cycled you need to have ammonia (and nitrite) present and you want to have as much total ammonia present as possible without causing permanent harm to the fish. And it is the NH3 that will cause the real harm. Your goal is to allow the total ammonia to rise as high as possible as long as the NH3 content does not get to .05 ppm using that calculator. And even if that level of NH3 is not reached, there is still a limit to how high one can allow total ammonia to rise.

Remember, NH4 can still cause ammonia burns. This writer’s normal cutoff for total ammonia for more than a few days or so is 2 ppm. As a rule of thumb, you can run at 2 ppm of total ammonia with the NH3 being well under .05 for some short amount time. The lower it is under .05, the better. At under .02 ppm of NH3 many fish can be in up to 2 ppm for a number of days and still be OK. The best sign of how long is how the fish behave. If they act distressed, then that is high and/or long enough. Some fish can manage in higher levels, others can’t. This is why you must also watch the fish as well as the test levels.

SIGNS OF AMMONIA POISONING
Fish will not behave as they normally do. Signs of ammonia poisoning can include sluggish behavior, panting, and gill discoloration (gill burn). Fish may hang just below the water surface or they may hide or stop eating. When you know you have ammonia in the tank during cycling and you notice such behavioral changes, the best course of action, regardless of test results, it to do an immediate water change of 50% or more.


I hope the above helps.

p.s. Consider this as well from SeaChem re Prime
Q: I am using Prime® to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?

A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime® complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away.
from https://www.seachem.com/prime.php
 
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Heymikki

Feeder Fish
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Jan 3, 2021
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BTW to me persistent ammonia means it is there for weeks not days/ Days is pary of the cycling process, a real problem is something else.

That ammonia alert works slowly. There is a better way that costs nothing and it tells you better what it going on.

As noted most hobby kits measure Total Ammonia (TA), this is the sum of NH3 (ammonia) and NH4 (ammonium).

Next, ammonia in water mostly turns to ammonium. But what we need to know is neither the TA or the NH4, we need to know how much of the really nasty stuff is in that TA. So, use something like the API ammonia test or similar and it will give you total ammonia. You will need to know 3 other numbers about your water:

1. pH
2. Temperature
3. Salinity (if you have any salt is in the water).

I wrote the info below for another site in a series of articles on cycling. The 2nd and 3rd dealt with rescuing a Fish-in Cycle Gone Wild. What is below is from the 3rd article for people who could or would not return their fish or add a viable bottled bacteria.

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php


1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.

The number you want to know is the one for NH3.

[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]

Why do you want this number? Because, to get a tank cycled you need to have ammonia (and nitrite) present and you want to have as much total ammonia present as possible without causing permanent harm to the fish. And it is the NH3 that will cause the real harm. Your goal is to allow the total ammonia to rise as high as possible as long as the NH3 content does not get to .05 ppm using that calculator. And even if that level of NH3 is not reached, there is still a limit to how high one can allow total ammonia to rise.

Remember, NH4 can still cause ammonia burns. This writer’s normal cutoff for total ammonia for more than a few days or so is 2 ppm. As a rule of thumb, you can run at 2 ppm of total ammonia with the NH3 being well under .05 for some short amount time. The lower it is under .05, the better. At under .02 ppm of NH3 many fish can be in up to 2 ppm for a number of days and still be OK. The best sign of how long is how the fish behave. If they act distressed, then that is high and/or long enough. Some fish can manage in higher levels, others can’t. This is why you must also watch the fish as well as the test levels.

SIGNS OF AMMONIA POISONING
Fish will not behave as they normally do. Signs of ammonia poisoning can include sluggish behavior, panting, and gill discoloration (gill burn). Fish may hang just below the water surface or they may hide or stop eating. When you know you have ammonia in the tank during cycling and you notice such behavioral changes, the best course of action, regardless of test results, it to do an immediate water change of 50% or more.


I hope the above helps.

p.s. Consider this as well from SeaChem re Prime

from https://www.seachem.com/prime.php
Thank you for this it is very insightful. I am wondering now if how frequently I’ve been using fritz complete (similar product to prime) has been giving me false readings
 

Heymikki

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jan 3, 2021
28
24
8
29
BTW to me persistent ammonia means it is there for weeks not days/ Days is pary of the cycling process, a real problem is something else.

That ammonia alert works slowly. There is a better way that costs nothing and it tells you better what it going on.

As noted most hobby kits measure Total Ammonia (TA), this is the sum of NH3 (ammonia) and NH4 (ammonium).

Next, ammonia in water mostly turns to ammonium. But what we need to know is neither the TA or the NH4, we need to know how much of the really nasty stuff is in that TA. So, use something like the API ammonia test or similar and it will give you total ammonia. You will need to know 3 other numbers about your water:

1. pH
2. Temperature
3. Salinity (if you have any salt is in the water).

I wrote the info below for another site in a series of articles on cycling. The 2nd and 3rd dealt with rescuing a Fish-in Cycle Gone Wild. What is below is from the 3rd article for people who could or would not return their fish or add a viable bottled bacteria.

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php


1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.

The number you want to know is the one for NH3.

[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]

Why do you want this number? Because, to get a tank cycled you need to have ammonia (and nitrite) present and you want to have as much total ammonia present as possible without causing permanent harm to the fish. And it is the NH3 that will cause the real harm. Your goal is to allow the total ammonia to rise as high as possible as long as the NH3 content does not get to .05 ppm using that calculator. And even if that level of NH3 is not reached, there is still a limit to how high one can allow total ammonia to rise.

Remember, NH4 can still cause ammonia burns. This writer’s normal cutoff for total ammonia for more than a few days or so is 2 ppm. As a rule of thumb, you can run at 2 ppm of total ammonia with the NH3 being well under .05 for some short amount time. The lower it is under .05, the better. At under .02 ppm of NH3 many fish can be in up to 2 ppm for a number of days and still be OK. The best sign of how long is how the fish behave. If they act distressed, then that is high and/or long enough. Some fish can manage in higher levels, others can’t. This is why you must also watch the fish as well as the test levels.

SIGNS OF AMMONIA POISONING
Fish will not behave as they normally do. Signs of ammonia poisoning can include sluggish behavior, panting, and gill discoloration (gill burn). Fish may hang just below the water surface or they may hide or stop eating. When you know you have ammonia in the tank during cycling and you notice such behavioral changes, the best course of action, regardless of test results, it to do an immediate water change of 50% or more.


I hope the above helps.

p.s. Consider this as well from SeaChem re Prime

from https://www.seachem.com/prime.php
This morning using that calculator I am calculating an NH3 reading of 0.015, the api test kit is showing my total ammonia reading at 1.0. What do you suggest I do at this point?
 
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tlindsey

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This morning using that calculator I am calculating an NH3 reading of 0.015, the api test kit is showing my total ammonia reading at 1.0. What do you suggest I do at this point?
I suggest a water change and don't feed fish for a couple of days. After water change test again. Make sure testing vial is rinsed throughly prior to testing. I recommend rinsing vial out with deionized or distilled water. Regent left in test vial will sometimes stain vial causing a false test reading.
 
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Heymikki

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Oh man wish I had a better update here. I’m now still dealing with the ammonia spike, but also dealing with a massive ph drop. I’ve been dozing with stability and prime for the last few days, and holding off on the huge water changes to not shock the fish with the drastic change in ph. Even after a smaller water change the new ph doesn’t hold and continuously drops
 
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TwoTankAmin

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Oct 2, 2008
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Too much junk going into the tank. The cycle itself is acid and will cause the pH to drop.

an NH3 levels 0.015 is not doing much harm, if any to the fish. However, the goal is still to get down to 0. Ammonium is not beneficial for the fish and prolonged exposure will result in problems.

Prune causes fals reading of ammonia, stability will not jelp as it does not contain the nitrifying bacteria you want. These reproduce by dividing and they do not form spores. Stability is a bottle of spores.

Change water to get the pH back up. Hardness and TDS are more important than pH. Adding a bag of crushed coral to your filter can help. The acid water dissolves the calcium carbonate and that increase the KH levels. And KH is what keeps pH up. Forget buffers here. You will just make more problems.

The fewer chemicals one needs to add to their water, the better. Messing with your water chemistry without decent knowledge will simple get most folks into more trouble than the reverse.

Please have a read here: https://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html

Sorry to be so slow to answer but at this time life has me running in all directions at the same time.
 
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