Help To Bring Asian Aros Back To The US...

[davo]

for starters, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scleropages_formosus

specifically under "conservation status". There is an animals committee with CITES who look at a number of criteria for listing a species. Trade, and the IUCN listing are two things, but there are a lot. Check out: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.shtml

for how it works. Hope this helps.

I understand the history of it. They were placed on there a very long time ago, there is a tiny percentage of population counts that have been done, as oddball said only 5% of their range has been studied. EOS and the such only reveals a small portion of their range is being degraded by humans. It is obviosuly these regions that are being studied, and are the most accessable. However these regions, as far as i know are not specifically important as one of a few breeding sites/feeding grounds etc. If there is no evidence of population, how can you say something is endangered. On the other hand, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'd rather them be over cautious than be the other way

 

[wizzin]

I understand the history of it. They were placed on there a very long time ago, there is a tiny percentage of population counts that have been done, as oddball said only 5% of their range has been studied. EOS and the such only reveals a small portion of their range is being degraded by humans. It is obviosuly these regions that are being studied, and are the most accessable. However these regions, as far as i know are not specifically important as one of a few breeding sites/feeding grounds etc. If there is no evidence of population, how can you say something is endangered. On the other hand, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'd rather them be over cautious than be the other way

Actually 5% might be generous. The point is that there is a Rapid Assessment Study in progress that is aiming to create a format for conservation of the species to be applied to other range areas. It's also not just about numbers. For example, nobody goes out with a calculator and nets and tries to count all the fish that are left in the world. As I said earlier, a lot of things are considered, such as habitat loss over a period of time, poaching increases and decreases, demand, etc. etc. etc.

It comes down to whether compared to 1975 if the population is on the rise or fall. My bet is it's still declining. This species has a chance IF populations are found in isolated remote ranges (by the way, the study is NOT in an accessible place!!!) and efforts are made to educate the native people/tribes on the effects of over exploitation etc. That's the gist of the conservation effort.

 

[wizzin]

here is a reply from one of the people who actually make these decisions.

Whether something is listed as endangered has nothing to do with the status
of the captive population, but is entirely based on the status in the wild.
In that case, we also then consider the current status of the species
relative to its previous status. If it was once abundant and widespread,
but is now rare with a fragmented distribution, and particularly if it
continues to decline, then it may qualify as endangered or threatened under
the ESA. If it is a species that always had a restricted natural
distribution, and there are no real threats occurring and reducing its
population size or distribution, then it is not endangered or threatened.
It is not strictly based on numbers. There could be a species that only
numbers in the hundreds on an island somewhere that never occurred in
greater numbers, with a stable population and no threats; therefore, it's
not endangered. Another species may currently number in the hundreds of
thousands over a fragmented area, but once numbered in the millions over a
very large, continuous area. Particularly if the decline and fragmentation
are continuing to occur, even though they still number in the hundreds of
thousands, this could be considered an endangered or at least threatened
species.

 

[davo]

yeah, i understand wild populations are different to captive (in this case they are completely different fish anyway). It's just considering close to extintion is I think a bit jumping the gun. Conservation of anything is important to everything... I know, I am involved with it myself. Waiting for something to be critically endangered until something is done, is not the way to go about things. Giving anything a protected status is great news, I'm just saying, near extinction... not so sure about that.

 

[wizzin]

yeah, i understand wild populations are different to captive (in this case they are completely different fish anyway). It's just considering close to extintion is I think a bit jumping the gun. Conservation of anything is important to everything... I know, I am involved with it myself. Waiting for something to be critically endangered until something is done, is not the way to go about things. Giving anything a protected status is great news, I'm just saying, near extinction... not so sure about that.

yeah, I meant by near extinction that out of the 3 appendices of CITES, Appendix I is closest to extinction. Realitivly speaking.

 

[T1KARMANN]

what i cant understand hear is why it has taken so long before people are going down this route

from what you are saying they have been CITIE a1 for years why is it now you want to do somthing about it

people only miss fish when they are gone

with rays i hurd they were going to put black rays on CITES yet stll people were moaning that tney want wild caught rays

if the main concern hear was the wild population of asian aros i cant understand why this route wasnt taken before rather than trying to get the ban lifed

 

[wizzin]

what i cant understand hear is why it has taken so long before people are going down this route

from what you are saying they have been CITIE a1 for years why is it now you want to do somthing about it

people only miss fish when they are gone

with rays i hurd they were going to put black rays on CITES yet stll people were moaning that tney want wild caught rays

if the main concern hear was the wild population of asian aros i cant understand why this route wasnt taken before rather than trying to get the ban lifed

good question. From what I understand, I'm the first person to propose to the USFWS that we allow imports which require a financial contribution to conservation. At least they aren't deemed to be extinct in the wild, and there is a slight chance left.

 

[T1KARMANN]

good question. From what I understand, I'm the first person to propose to the USFWS that we allow imports which require a financial contribution to conservation. At least they aren't deemed to be extinct in the wild, and there is a slight chance left.

i get the idear every asian aro inported to the US will have some kind of tax added which will go to helping the wild population of asian aros good idear but this will just make the price of the aros more expensive so this is the sort of prices you will be looking at paying

green aro $200 + $50 tax = $250
Red Tail golds $700 + $50 tax = $750
cross backs/super reds $2400 + $50 tax = $2450

$50 is the least you can expect to charge if you want to help the wild population in any way $100 would be better but even then their may not be a big enought market to make any impact at all

just out of intrest how would this money be spent to try to help the wild aros
you cant just pull this idear out of the sky and think the US goverment will take note without some kind of buisness plan

 

[wizzin]

i get the idear every asian aro inported to the US will have some kind of tax added which will go to helping the wild population of asian aros good idear but this will just make the price of the aros more expensive so this is the sort of prices you will be looking at paying

green aro $200 + $50 tax = $250
Red Tail golds $700 + $50 tax = $750
cross backs/super reds $2400 + $50 tax = $2450

$50 is the least you can expect to charge if you want to help the wild population in any way $100 would be better but even then their may not be a big enought market to make any impact at all

just out of intrest how would this money be spent to try to help the wild aros
you cant just pull this idear out of the sky and think the US goverment will take note without some kind of buisness plan

Now you've got it. I think I went over this somewhere on here, but essentially, there already is a conservation plan. We're just going to donate the money to that plan. Also, $50 makes a big difference. For example, $150 is one month's salary for a Cambodian scientist. You do the math... Remember, the US dollar is still stronger in most of the range countries, so our "little" contribution is actually a big one over there.

As for the amount of the fee, that's still debatable. I've seen as high as $500 suggested, and if it's up to the USFWS, it very well may be that high. Some of the existing permits for endangered species are around $300 each, which would also apply to the arowana, and don't forget shipping, so the math would be more like this:

green aro $200 + $50 tax + $150 (usfws permit fee) + $80 shipping = $480
Red Tail golds $700 + $50 tax + $150 (usfws permit fee) + $80 shipping = $980
cross backs/super reds $2400 + $50 tax $150 (usfws permit fee) + $80 shipping = $2680

 

[T1KARMANN]

Now you've got it. I think I went over this somewhere on here, but essentially, there already is a conservation plan. We're just going to donate the money to that plan. Also, $50 makes a big difference. For example, $150 is one month's salary for a Cambodian scientist. You do the math... Remember, the US dollar is still stronger in most of the range countries, so our "little" contribution is actually a big one over there.

As for the amount of the fee, that's still debatable. I've seen as high as $500 suggested, and if it's up to the USFWS, it very well may be that high. Some of the existing permits for endangered species are around $300 each, which would also apply to the arowana, and don't forget shipping, so the math would be more like this:

green aro $200 + $50 tax + $150 (usfws permit fee) + $80 shipping = $480
Red Tail golds $700 + $50 tax + $150 (usfws permit fee) + $80 shipping = $980
cross backs/super reds $2400 + $50 tax $150 (usfws permit fee) + $80 shipping = $2680

i just cant see the US goverment setting up a whole department just to deal with aro imports

if the wages are so cheap then why not put $2,000 yourself that will pay the wages for 2yrs for 2 men to do the resurch needed

we have to apply for permits hear in the UK diffrent permits depending if the aro is for hobbyists or if the aro is to be sold and displayed in a shop which need an artical 10

i cant see this going anywere to tell the truth its just another shot in the dark

i cant understand why the US wont allow captive bred asian aros into the US all captive bred aros are tagged and are bred solely for the fish trade which has no effect on the wild population anyway

i think your best route is to convince the US gov that its ok to import captive bred aros which are not endangered so shouldnt be cities a1

i know you have stated that this is mainly about helping the wild population of asian aros but the title of this thread implys thats its to asian aros back into the US

so what is this realy all about ?